Could we utilise the Redfield ratio a little better in aquaria?

[KrisReef]

No. I am allergic to shellfish.

I knew this guy George who as a young man had a theory that if he asked 10 prospects a day that he might get a yes, once or twice, or even 3 times a day! His point was that he faced a lot of rejection (lets call them crabs) but he also got a lot of new "friends" for being willing to face rejection.

I too am alegeric to rejection and I haven't eaten a lot of chicken either. And bacon, is not Kosher.

16:1 can be simplified to 16, (or 10) as a shorthand in discussion of ratios.

 

[ReneReef]

I’d just like to point out that one of the pages was a discussion about bacon.

Yes and who would have thought that it would turn out to be the most interesting page of this topic.

 

[areefer01]

I knew this guy George who as a young man had a theory that if he asked 10 prospects a day that he might get a yes, once or twice, or even 3 times a day! His point was that he faced a lot of rejection (lets call them crabs) but he also got a lot of new "friends" for being willing to face rejection.

I guess I took his question literally. Joke is on me. Hope your day is well.

 

[KrisReef]

I guess I took his question literally. Joke is on me. Hope your day is well.

Thank you. My day is unexpectedly normal.
I don’t think the OP is expecting an answer but more of a discussion. I chimed in with the latter because I had read some of the former posts.

 

[KrisReef]

Yes and who would have thought that it would turn out to be the most interesting page of this topic.

Bacon is blasphemy, in any ratio!

I’m still stuck on 10.

 

[Brian916]

I can see that this thread is already way off the rails, but I have a semi-serious question on the topic...it is my impression that home nitrate tests are low precision/ accuracy and ICP results are slow and expensive. Therefore, I don't track N. Same goes for DOC. If we have 3 variables N, P, and C, 2 unknowns, and 1 "ratio" how do we formulate a solution?

Even if I could pretend to understand the topic, I don't think we really have reliable data for making decisions?

 

[sixty_reefer]

I can see that this thread is already way off the rails, but I have a semi-serious question on the topic...it is my impression that home nitrate tests are low precision/ accuracy and ICP results are slow and expensive. Therefore, I don't track N. Same goes for DOC. If we have 3 variables N, P, and C, 2 unknowns, and 1 "ratio" how do we formulate a solution?

Even if I could pretend to understand the topic, I don't think we really have reliable data for making decisions?

I’ve come to a conclusion that we don’t need the absolute value of C and N

In my understanding, I believe we just need to know what is limiting. To identify a carbon limitation I usually interpret by looking at Nitrate and Phosphate residual. If both are rising constantly it is a fair indication that carbon is out of balance and therefore limiting the balance in the ratio.

It is my belief that a system that has a constant residual no3 and po4 to be in perfect balance with the ratio.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Why dose rising (or even residual) N and P have to mean limited C?? What if the bacterial counts or activity are simply not present to utilize the NCP that is already there?

Moreover, NCP are not the only variables or limiters in the water chemistry, pH, light, oxygen, etc.

What does any of this have to do with the ratio in any practical sense anyway?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Why dose rising N and P have to mean limited C?? What if the bacterial counts or activity are simply not present to utilize the NCP that is already there?

Moreover, NCP are not the only variables or limiters in the water chemistry, pH, light, oxygen, etc.

What does any of this have to do with the ratio in any practical sense anyway?

The ratio is on the balance of a system, a balance aquarium is importing and exporting nutrients at the perfect ratio. if you research it you will see that a constant rise in Nitrate and phosphate are directly connected to a limitation in C similar with a abundance of C were you will notice Nitrates and Phosphate decreasing. It’s just basic nutrient limitation knowledge.

 

[rtparty]

There is no perfect ratio

 

[Hats_]

The ratio is on the balance of a system, a balance aquarium is importing and exporting nutrients at the perfect ratio. if you research it you will see that a constant rise in Nitrate and phosphate are directly connected to a limitation in C similar with a abundance of C were you will notice Nitrates and Phosphate decreasing. It’s just basic nutrient limitation knowledge.

You keep denying that there are other factors that affect nutrients in our reef tanks other than your precious bacteria.

As we try to tell you, your theory is flawed and cannot be proven. I think its time to stop digging this hole and go back to the drawing board. DOC is a fairly new concept in our hobby so there is probably plenty to discover, this just isnt it, and that is also okay.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The ratio is on the balance of a system, a balance aquarium is importing and exporting nutrients at the perfect ratio. if you research it you will see that a constant rise in Nitrate and phosphate are directly connected to a limitation in C similar with a abundance of C were you will notice Nitrates and Phosphate decreasing. It’s just basic nutrient limitation knowledge.

You conveniently ignored my post to tell me I needed to educate myself?

What ratio? It is not fixed, as there are numerous variables and consumers. But even so, you are saying that the big WOW jaw dropper here is that…..

Dosing carbon in a healthy reef will consume N and P as long as you have the means to remove the resulting biomass before it breaks down again or creates other side effects?

 

[rishma]

I read the thread, but honestly I do not understand the goal of finding a ratio, if one exists, in terms of numbers. I doubt that a grand unifying ratio even exists. I expect different organisms in different tanks consume the parts differently and other variables likely impact the consumption too. Perhaps I'm not interested enough to think hard about it, but stability in a good range for N & P with a fixed dose of C is my goal.

I try to keep N and P pretty darn constant when I input the same food and carbon dose daily. In fact, my whole goal has been to find this balance and I have had some success. I use an auto feeder and dosing pump and I tweak the inputs until things stay constant. I have not achieved this balance long term, but I am getting close.

So, I suppose I am trying to achieve a stable balance but not a ratio. I don’t think I’d do anything different if I knew exactly the ratio NPC consumption in my tank. Nor do I think I could share my inputs and outputs with other reefers and have them achieve the same results.

It would take a lot of math to determine how much N, P, and C I am adding…and then analysis to know how much I’m extracting, and all the potential sources of error make this seem like a fools errand. So I just dose, test, adjust dose, test…rinse and repeat.

 

[sixty_reefer]

You keep denying that there are other factors that affect nutrients in our reef tanks other than your precious bacteria.

As we try to tell you, your theory is flawed and cannot be proven. I think its time to stop digging this hole and go back to the drawing board. DOC is a fairly new concept in our hobby so there is probably plenty to discover, this just isnt it, and that is also okay.

They not affect the ratio. They a part of it. Name 1 thing that will affect the overall ratio.

 

[sixty_reefer]

You conveniently ignored my post to tell me I needed to educate myself?

What ratio? It is not fixed, as there are numerous variables and consumers. But even so, you are saying that the big WOW jaw dropper here is that…..

Dosing carbon in a healthy reef will consume N and P as long as you have the means to remove the resulting biomass before it breaks down again or creates other side effects?

I’ve ignored it, do to you being ignoring the daily input of C via carbohydrates into a system and only thinking of the biological filtration via nitrification and denitrification.

 

[sixty_reefer]

There is no perfect ratio

Ok,

 

[sixty_reefer]

I read the thread, but honestly I do not understand the goal of finding a ratio, if one exists, in terms of numbers. I doubt that a grand unifying ratio even exists. I expect different organisms in different tanks consume the parts differently and other variables likely impact the consumption too. Perhaps I'm not interested enough to think hard about it, but stability in a good range for N & P with a fixed dose of C is my goal.

I try to keep N and P pretty darn constant when I input the same food and carbon dose daily. In fact, my whole goal has been to find this balance and I have had some success. I use an auto feeder and dosing pump and I tweak the inputs until things stay constant. I have not achieved this balance long term, but I am getting close.

So, I suppose I am trying to achieve a stable balance but not a ratio. I don’t think I’d do anything different if I knew exactly the ratio NPC consumption in my tank. Nor do I think I could share my inputs and outputs with other reefers and have them achieve the same results.

It would take a lot of math to determine how much N, P, and C I am adding…and then analysis to know how much I’m extracting, and all the potential sources of error make this seem like a fools errand. So I just dose, test, adjust dose, test…rinse and repeat.

As long as the target is balance, the overall ratio doesn’t really matter, I’ve spent to much time researching this to get to the useless conclusion that the answer to the perfect ratio translates simply to “balance”.
This is where the Tank water values are consistent to natural reef environment water conditions.
Nutrient limitation can only be used to achieve balance in an environment if lost at some point due to a new variable in the ecosystem being added.
Every time we add a new coral supplement or change the food supplement to the fish for example in reef aquaria we are prone to lose the current balance due to new nutrient variables being introduced.

 

[Hats_]

As long as the target is balance, the overall ratio doesn’t really matter, I’ve spent to much time researching this to get to the useless conclusion that the answer to the perfect ratio translates simply to “balance”.
This is where the Tank water values are consistent to natural reef environment water conditions.
Nutrient limitation can only be used to achieve balance in an environment if lost at some point due to a new variable in the ecosystem being added.
Every time we add a new coral supplement or change the food supplement to the fish for example in reef aquaria we are prone to lose the current balance due to new nutrient variables being introduced.

You could say the same for a growing coral, its nutritional needs rise as it grows. This is why reef tank dosing requires constant adjuctment. There is no such thing as balace since we need to intervene to keep parameters as constant as possible

Also wild reefs are deserts that occasionally recieve an influx of nutrients from a source such as fish poop, hardly in balance if u ask me.

 

[sixty_reefer]

You could say the same for a growing coral, its nutritional needs rise as it grows. This is why reef tank dosing requires constant adjuctment. There is no such thing as balace since we need to intervene to keep parameters as constant as possible

Also wild reefs are deserts that occasionally recieve an influx of nutrients from a source such as fish poop, hardly in balance if u ask me.

We are playing with way less water than what would be found in their natural environment.
We will have to keep adjusting as needed that’s what this theory tells me, like I mentioned before I spend a lot of time researching this just to get to the conclusions many reefers reached many years ago like stability and balance.

nutrients for coral are available everywhere from the water in their environment in the form of bacteria. That is part of the make up of seawater and the ratio in seawater.

 

[Hats_]

We are playing with way less water than what would be found in their natural environment.
We will have to keep adjusting as needed that’s what this theory tells me, like I mentioned before I spend a lot of time researching this just to get to the conclusions many reefers reached many years ago like stability and balance.

nutrients for coral are available everywhere from the water in their environment in the form of bacteria. That is part of the make up of seawater and the ratio in seawater.

If youre so adamant that there is a ratio in which all nutrients get consumed, then prove it?

You can do all the theory in the world but eventually you're gonna have to test it.

I don't think you are going to like the outcome but hey prove us wrong