Discussing nitrate reduction

[Mels_Reef]

How high do nitrates get if you extend water changes to two weeks or four weeks? Might be you're already there and just need to provide the corals some extra time to reduce nutrients on their own.

Nitrates jump about 5ppm if I skip 1 week. Ive not gone longer than that because I don’t want them to hit 20

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No experience with acros but I believe WWC runs nitrates around 20-25 ppm. Richard Ross puts that to shame. Granted every tank is different but often we try solving that not needing a solution.

I have been that high before. The acros were healthy but the colors were not as nice. Whites were more tan, greens and browns were more dominant. I’ve also been below 10 (after the sulfur denitrator use) before and the corals did not appear as healthy. Less PE and more pastel coloration.

10-15 seems to be the sweet spot for my best color range

This mantra one must keep very narrow ranges why I might just keep discuss in the main and setup my 15 AIO that's been sitting in the garage since prior Christmas for Sticks. They seem more stressful than raising teenagers who think everything new to them must be new to the world and they are never wrong. Talk about walking narrow ranges.

I don’t think it’s a “must” to keep narrow ranges, it’s just me trying to micro manage my personal “sweet spot” lol. When things are rolling nicely, they aren’t much work because a lot of the processes are automated. But you are def right, they can be like teenagers without warning as well lol!

 

[GARRIGA]

Nitrates jump about 5ppm if I skip 1 week. Ive not gone longer than that because I don’t want them to hit 20

I have been that high before. The acros were healthy but the colors were not as nice. Whites were more tan, greens and browns were more dominant. I’ve also been below 10 (after the sulfur denitrator use) before and the corals did not appear as healthy. Less PE and more pastel coloration.

10-15 seems to be the sweet spot for my best color range



I don’t think it’s a “must” to keep narrow ranges, it’s just me trying to micro manage my personal “sweet spot” lol. When things are rolling nicely, they aren’t much work because a lot of the processes are automated. But you are def right, they can be like teenagers without warning as well lol!

Have you noticed the corals growing faster with higher nutrients although perhaps less colorful than preferred? Teenagers allowed to play in dirt tend to grow faster

 

[Aquariumaddictuk]

Curious why the Discus community continues to mimic Malaysian water change practices considering the advancements in filtration such as carbon dosing. No way I'm doing that

Numerous long winded answers to this.
Trust me, I questioned it myself when I started keeping them.
The easiest answer is mimicking their practices works.
Deviating very often doesn't.

 

[Mels_Reef]

Have you noticed the corals growing faster with higher nutrients although perhaps less colorful than preferred? Teenagers allowed to play in dirt tend to grow faster

Haven’t really noticed any growth rate difference that I can tell by mere observation. But there are also so many other factors that play a part in growth rate that it would be hard to isolate no3 as a stand alone factor in it. I feel like nutrients, however, have a direct impact on color variation when all other things are equal.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Haven’t really noticed any growth rate difference that I can tell by mere observation. But there are also so many other factors that play a part in growth rate that it would be hard to isolate no3 as a stand alone factor in it. I feel like nutrients, however, have a direct impact on color variation when all other things are equal.

Since nitrate is only one of several N sources, and folks cannot readily test the others (ammonia, urea, organics) , it is difficult to make definitive conclusions about the effects of nitrogen availability in general.

Keeping at least a few ppm nitrate can ensure N is not strongly limiting growth, but the reverse is not true and the effects of different N sources is likely different. Many folks with some nitrate observe improvements when dosing ammonia.

 

[Reeferbadness]

The chaeto in the refugiums on both of my 200g tanks sucks up so much Nitrate that I have to dose …. Even keeping the chaeto to about softball size. Just sayin

 

[vetteguy53081]

Reducing nitrate is more difficult to accomplish than increasing it. Many resort to a refugium or protein skimmer but are often not enough to reduce it but I have best success with an algae scrubber and doing daily 2-3 gallon water changes for about 2 weeks which amounts to about 10 minutes a day

 

[WillpoleReefers]

I have been running a Deltec NFP 512 for over two months now with fair results. It’s on my 1200L system with a significant fish load, seems to be keeping nitrates below 15ppm . I say fair results because it has been a bit of a challenge getting the flow up beyond 30ml/min (43.2 l/day) . On standard 16ml/d starting rate for denitrator fluid it switches from 0 nitrate out to high quite quickly above that flow. Now playing with nutrient feed rate and hoping to edge it up.

I guess your sulphur reactor doesn’t have internal circulation like the deltec. It occurs to me that it would be very easy to make something that does the same job cheaper. Certainly the deltec media appears to grow the right bacteria ok. Maybe add a pump system to it plus suitable media?

 

[mythesis]

I'm pretty new to this hobby, but would dosing phyto be an effective way to lower your Nitrates?

 

[GARRIGA]

I'm pretty new to this hobby, but would dosing phyto be an effective way to lower your Nitrates?

Live phyto are single cell algae which consume nitrates, phosphates and co2 as well as ammonium and nitrites and certain elements (likely such as iron). Fish and corals and other inverts consume that and sequester those nutrients. Key is not letting the phyto perish uneaten otherwise they now contribute those nutrients back via decomposition.

 

[mythesis]

Live phyto are single cell algae which consume nitrates, phosphates and co2 as well as ammonium and nitrites and certain elements (likely such as iron). Fish and corals and other inverts consume that and sequester those nutrients. Key is not letting the phyto perish uneaten otherwise they now contribute those nutrients back via decomposition.

Thanks. I bought my tank Phyto for Christmas and immediately crashed Nitrates from 10 ish down to 0 in about 2 weeks.

I didn't know if that's a normal/intended response or if I did something wrong.

 

[Lasse]

Teenagers allowed to play in dirt tend to grow faster

Because they rarely get sick - you know - the famous immune system and its training

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mels_Reef]

The chaeto in the refugiums on both of my 200g tanks sucks up so much Nitrate that I have to dose …. Even keeping the chaeto to about softball size. Just sayin

I’m considering running a small macro tank. Just haven’t fully decided on a solution yet.

How do you know the macro is doing all that nitrate reduction and not some other biological means contributing heavily to it? Just curious.

 

[Mels_Reef]

I have been running a Deltec NFP 512 for over two months now with fair results. It’s on my 1200L system with a significant fish load, seems to be keeping nitrates below 15ppm . I say fair results because it has been a bit of a challenge getting the flow up beyond 30ml/min (43.2 l/day) . On standard 16ml/d starting rate for denitrator fluid it switches from 0 nitrate out to high quite quickly above that flow. Now playing with nutrient feed rate and hoping to edge it up.

I guess your sulphur reactor doesn’t have internal circulation like the deltec. It occurs to me that it would be very easy to make something that does the same job cheaper. Certainly the deltec media appears to grow the right bacteria ok. Maybe add a pump system to it plus suitable media?

Pardon my ignorance…. What is a Deltec NFP 512? It sounds like a sulfur denitrator but I don’t want to assume. And what is “deltec media”?

Also, are you an SPS keeper?

My sulfur denitrator is recirculating. It wouldn’t really qualify as a sulfur denitrator if it didn’t recirculate to deplete oxygen. I won’t be setting it up with sulfur. Had issues with critical levels of sulfur on icp results previously. I could have possibly been using too much media but I just don’t want to take a chance on losing acros again

 

[reefer2/19/24]

Algae scrubber. If I were to do it again, I would do algae scrubber instead of refugium.

I just got in touch with Brian at Rain2 algae scrubbers and let him know that my drain tray had a defect (it was curved and not flat causing a lot of noise) he replaced it immediately for free! Also schooled me on running it at startup as it was producing a ton of slime but no turf algae. I have been sick for 9 days straight and finally caved and went to the doctor and got zythromiacin and steroids so as soon as I get back even a bit of energy going to fix the scrubber and do a water change. I haven't tested the parameters in 3 weeks or done a water change in 4 weeks. Tank turned 6 months old January 3rd. Cleaned the glass last week and Tank looks good. Got a couple of easy frags like Monti and a chalice frag seem to be OK with the exception of one of the Montis that a gorilla crab tore up two of the edges hoping it recovers. That's a caution for buying live rock from Tampa bay live rock they tell you that you are going to get hitchhikers so inspection is a must. 3 gorilla crabs and pretty sure I have gotten them all. One even caught and ate a Bella Goby!!

 

[WillpoleReefers]

Pardon my ignorance…. What is a Deltec NFP 512? It sounds like a sulfur denitrator but I don’t want to assume. And what is “deltec media”?

Also, are you an SPS keeper?

My sulfur denitrator is recirculating. It wouldn’t really qualify as a sulfur denitrator if it didn’t recirculate to deplete oxygen. I won’t be setting it up with sulfur. Had issues with critical levels of sulfur on icp results previously. I could have possibly been using too much media but I just don’t want to take a chance on losing acros again

Here’s the thing:

Deltec NFP512 Nitrate Filter

The NEW NFP range of reactors have been developed to overcome the usual problems associated with such equipment to reduce the maintenance and to increase the efficiency of the system.

charterhouse-aquatics.com

It’s the second model in the series and rated for my 1200L though maybe I should have gone one model larger with hindsight.

OK so you have recirculation, basically the same thing except that the deltec is using its own rolled up bacterial support medium , no sulphur, and an alcohol nutrient feed (Deltec nitrate fluid or arguably vodka). The Deltec medium is a roll of matted material that fits in the reactor. You can probably buy it. Just acts as a substrate for the anaerobic bacteria. Nutrient feed rate has to be tuned to match seawater inflow. The inflow needs to be consistent, for me the only good way to do this was a decent Kamoer continuous rated peristaltic pump, rated for 30-50ml per minute roughly. Feed and nutrient rates need to be easily adjustable and consistent I think or it will go out of tune.

Nitrate on the outflow is zero when it’s all working, that’s the basic way to monitor. Can measure ORP internally if you want to get fancy.

It’s a newish tank, 1 year, but yes sps acropora growing well in there now

Steve

 

[GARRIGA]

The Deltec medium is a roll of matted material that fits in the reactor.

Looks like a sponge to me. Something I've considered using. Different densities of Poret. Can go from 10 to 45 PPI. Curious what exactly they are using and density.

 

[Mels_Reef]

Here’s the thing:

Deltec NFP512 Nitrate Filter

The NEW NFP range of reactors have been developed to overcome the usual problems associated with such equipment to reduce the maintenance and to increase the efficiency of the system.

charterhouse-aquatics.com

It’s the second model in the series and rated for my 1200L though maybe I should have gone one model larger with hindsight.

OK so you have recirculation, basically the same thing except that the deltec is using its own rolled up bacterial support medium , no sulphur, and an alcohol nutrient feed (Deltec nitrate fluid or arguably vodka). The Deltec medium is a roll of matted material that fits in the reactor. You can probably buy it. Just acts as a substrate for the anaerobic bacteria. Nutrient feed rate has to be tuned to match seawater inflow. The inflow needs to be consistent, for me the only good way to do this was a decent Kamoer continuous rated peristaltic pump, rated for 30-50ml per minute roughly. Feed and nutrient rates need to be easily adjustable and consistent I think or it will go out of tune.

Nitrate on the outflow is zero when it’s all working, that’s the basic way to monitor. Can measure ORP internally if you want to get fancy.

It’s a newish tank, 1 year, but yes sps acropora growing well in there now

Steve

Thanks for the info. Yes, my denitrator is basically the same thing. Not as big though. I have always run it off of a manifold for the feed water and then have a valve on the output to control the flow down to 1 drip per 2 seconds. So it’s fully controllable. My only dilemma is how to feed the carbon source into the reactor

Earlier in this thread I was questioning using my reactor without sulfur. That is basically what your deltec is doing unless that deltec media is made of something to support the bacteria, like sulfur. As Garriga said, I’d like to know what that’s made of.

 

[GARRIGA]

Thanks for the info. Yes, my denitrator is basically the same thing. Not as big though. I have always run it off of a manifold for the feed water and then have a valve on the output to control the flow down to 1 drip per 2 seconds. So it’s fully controllable. My only dilemma is how to feed the carbon source into the reactor

Earlier in this thread I was questioning using my reactor without sulfur. That is basically what your deltec is doing unless that deltec media is made of something to support the bacteria, like sulfur. As Garriga said, I’d like to know what that’s made of.

Seems that Deltec either has a slow release media or uses a controlled injection. States it can be used pressurized therefore I'm assuming they have a means of injecting similar to the Aquaripure.

"New Model Deltec NFP Nitrate Filters are a simple and efficient way of reducing the nitrate level in your aquarium.
The NFP512 is suitable for saltwater and freshwater aquariums between 800 and 2000 litres.
Supplied with optional 1ml /min peristaltic pump to feed the reactor with nitrate fluid ( item no 64401000 ) or with membrane bag system ( item no 64301000 ).(Membrane bag is filled with nitrate reducing carbon source 'nitrate fluid' and installed inside the reactor as a slow release system)

Information
David Saxby spent great amounts of time and effort working with Deltec in Germany to create a new range of nitrate filters which would overcome many of the problems that are commonly found with this kind of reactor.The nitrates in his 3,700 gallon aquarium had crept up to the 50-60 ppm level due mostly to the 400+ fish that the tank houses and was having an affect on the bright colours of some of the corals. Working with the aim to make the new nitrate filter as simple and effective as possible it took about 10-12 weeks to bring the nitrate in his complete system to zero and involved many adaptations to the reactor.The new units are alcohol fed which can be added by syringe, osmotic bag or by a specifically designed peristaltic pump and are capable of being pressurised so that they can sit in a cabinet below the tank if you do not have a sump.

Features
Ease of cleaning via fully removable lid.
Large bore exit pipes that will not block.
Special media that will not choke up with dead bacteria.
Pressurised operation possible for flexibility of reactor positioning.
Recirculation system to ensure an even distribution of nitrate and food to the bacteria.
Can be operated in manual, semi-automatic and fully automatic mode.
Special dosing pump makes daily feeding of nitrate fluid automatic.
item no 64301000 without 1ml Peristaltic pump
item no 64401000 including Peristaltic pump"

 

[Reeferbadness]

I’m considering running a small macro tank. Just haven’t fully decided on a solution yet.

How do you know the macro is doing all that nitrate reduction and not some other biological means contributing heavily to it? Just curious.

I'm pretty sure it's the refugium sucking up all the nitrates due to the fact that when i let the chaeto get very large, nitrate consumption goes up and i have to dose more. If i take the chaeto out, nitrates stay balanced for the most part (no need to dose, stays around 5ppm) I have also read similar feedback from many others on this forum.