Good Nitrate to Phosphate ratio for a reef tank?

[sixty_reefer]

I don’t think heterotrophic bacteria take up N and P to any great extent unless one artificially doses organics that lack N and P. Random biochemicals that get consumed have more N and P than required.

That’s why I’ve mentioned depending on the conditions.
I don’t believe that up to date no one thought of studying the actual uptake of nutrients in aquaria by bacteria, most foods that we use daily in our systems contains carbon in different forms meaning that most systems will be getting a dose of carbon daily and this is reflected in most eDNA tests from aquabiomics that illustrate heterotrophic bacteria in all systems past the initial few weeks of a system fishless cycle. Meaning that I’m a way bacteria has a large influence on the nitrates and nitrogen availability in aquaria.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I’m not following how carbon dosing prevents nitrification.

there is a excellent article on how to use carbon dosing to eliminate a few types of
Dinoflagellates by Beuchat, in his article we can see from experiments made by the author that carbon dosing can in some events strip a system from ammonia and other nitrogen forms that some algaes can utilise to obtain energy from, i Normally refer them as nitrogen sources of nutrients like ammonia and urea that most algae’s including phytoplankton can utilise fairly well as you said. Carbon dosing is not just stimulating one type of bacteria there is several types of bacteria that can use nitrogen sources fairly easily. What is important to note is that if heterotrophic bacteria can assimilate this nitrogen source into biomass there won’t be much ammonia left in the system for nuisance algae and nitrifying bacteria to use.
This is why I say that zero nutrients in normal conditions can cause nuisance algae, dinoflagellates and other nuisances, the limitations in nitrates or phosphates for example could theoretically enough to make ammonia more available in a system due to the limitations in heterotrophic bacteria. In your situation you may not seeing this just yet as your ammonia is being used instantly by the bacteria due to carbon dosing although if you were to stop carbon dosing you could start seeing all sort of nuisances re established in the system.

min addition if you were to research you will see that heterotrophic bacteria can multiply every 5 to 10 minutes in comparison to denitrifying autotrophic bacteria that requires 16 hours to multiply. Knowing this information which bacteria you believe that can utilise the nutrients faster

It’s just the food source heterotrophic bacteria utilize which creates ammonia then nitrites. Same bacteria consuming left over food and any form of detritus. Fact is that detritus is a form of carbon.

I don’t agree life requires nitrates. I believe organism that can utilize nitrates would prefer ammonium and have to down convert nitrates to nitrites then ammonium. That’s how plants and algae operate and believe so would any and all organisms that would seek nitrates.

Hobby has likely become fixated on nitrates because it can be measured. One recently stated that the nitrates are there as a buffer which makes sense yet if ammonium is constantly available or frequently available then I suspect nitrates aren’t needed.

Conducted tests in freshwater with plants and micro algae. Regardless how much I over fed there were traces of ammonia or nitrites or nitrates. Using hobby level tests yet everything flourished. Ph was high and stable but alkalinity dropped until I placed enough fish to keep CO2 levels up.

Taking the same approach with reef keeping. Once I solve my ph issues I’ll test this on corals. Only way to find out is test it.

 

[GARRIGA]

there is a excellent article on how to use carbon dosing to eliminate a few types of
Dinoflagellates by Beuchat, in his article we can see from experiments made by the author that carbon dosing can in some events strip a system from ammonia and other nitrogen forms that some algaes can utilise to obtain energy from, i Normally refer them as nitrogen sources of nutrients like ammonia and urea that most algae’s including phytoplankton can utilise fairly well as you said. Carbon dosing is not just stimulating one type of bacteria there is several types of bacteria that can use nitrogen sources fairly easily. What is important to note is that if heterotrophic bacteria can assimilate this nitrogen source into biomass there won’t be much ammonia left in the system for nuisance algae and nitrifying bacteria to use.
This is why I say that zero nutrients in normal conditions can cause nuisance algae, dinoflagellates and other nuisances, the limitations in nitrates or phosphates for example could theoretically enough to make ammonia more available in a system due to the limitations in heterotrophic bacteria. In your situation you may not seeing this just yet as your ammonia is being used instantly by the bacteria due to carbon dosing although if you were to stop carbon dosing you could start seeing all sort of nuisances re established in the system.

min addition if you were to research you will see that heterotrophic bacteria can multiply every 5 to 10 minutes in comparison to denitrifying autotrophic bacteria that requires 16 hours to multiply. Knowing this information which bacteria you believe that can utilise the nutrients faster

I would expect nuisance algae to return if I stop carbon dosing and have done that exact experiment. Yet it vanished rather quickly once I resume carbon dosing.

I’m aware heterotrophic bacteria multiply quickly but I also have a media bed that’s 25% of my tank volume composed of quarter inch pumice thereby plenty of surface for both autotrophic and heterotrophic to establish and possibly why I don’t see the cloudiness others have reported snd mind you I have no skimmer.

Don’t know anything about any bacteria utilizing nitrates other than obtaining the bound oxygen when DO is below 0.5 ppm. I’ll just take your word fit yet don’t see any of this being an issue because of the heavy feeding. Have never seen dinos. No clue what they even look like. Had cyano once because of another experiment I surmised yet no clue exactly why rust happened yet today with zero nitrates or near zero and phosphates under 0.25 ppm there are no issues other than this white Dline which is easily sucked out with a turkey baster although I’d rather not bother with that once I have my main built. Reason for all these experiments is to learn from forcing mistakes and find a workaround that will make Reef keeping simple. Other priorities require most of my time.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I would expect nuisance algae to return if I stop carbon dosing and have done that exact experiment. Yet it vanished rather quickly once I resume carbon dosing.

I’m aware heterotrophic bacteria multiply quickly but I also have a media bed that’s 25% of my tank volume composed of quarter inch pumice thereby plenty of surface for both autotrophic and heterotrophic to establish and possibly why I don’t see the cloudiness others have reported snd mind you I have no skimmer.

Don’t know anything about any bacteria utilizing nitrates other than obtaining the bound oxygen when DO is below 0.5 ppm. I’ll just take your word fit yet don’t see any of this being an issue because of the heavy feeding. Have never seen dinos. No clue what they even look like. Had cyano once because of another experiment I surmised yet no clue exactly why rust happened yet today with zero nitrates or near zero and phosphates under 0.25 ppm there are no issues other than this white Dline which is easily sucked out with a turkey baster although I’d rather not bother with that once I have my main built. Reason for all these experiments is to learn from forcing mistakes and find a workaround that will make Reef keeping simple. Other priorities require most of my time.

You would need for the cell of dinoflagellates to be present in your system and ammonia to be available, maybe you could introduce some to your experiment.

 

[GARRIGA]

You would need for the cell of dinoflagellates to be present in your system and ammonia to be available, maybe you could introduce some to your experiment.

That I'm not doing

 

[Reefahholic]

I’m currently keeping a 100:1 ratio.

Typically around +/- 10:0.1 ppm

I’ve been playing with nutrients a lot lately. I’ve ran as low as 60:1 & as high as 200:1 and all these ratios seem to do fairly well if the system is stable. I think it also depends on the age of the tank. For my current tank, it seems to prefer the higher ratio, but that might be because it’s only 10 months and was started with dry rock. That could change later on as it matures.

 

[Reefahholic]

These were some key factors that really helped me gain control and beat my Dino’s. May not work for every species, or every tank, but it helped tremendously with mine.

It took me quite a while to think like a Dino. HaHaHa

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That’s why I’ve mentioned depending on the conditions.
I don’t believe that up to date no one thought of studying the actual uptake of nutrients in aquaria by bacteria, most foods that we use daily in our systems contains carbon in different forms meaning that most systems will be getting a dose of carbon daily and this is reflected in most eDNA tests from aquabiomics that illustrate heterotrophic bacteria in all systems past the initial few weeks of a system fishless cycle. Meaning that I’m a way bacteria has a large influence on the nitrates and nitrogen availability in aquaria.

In the absence of dosing organic carbon sources that lack N and p, I expect that all heterotrophs, from bacteria to whales, are net sources of inorganic N and P, not sinks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For my current tank, it seems to prefer the higher ratio, but that might be because it’s only 10 months and was started with dry rock.

maybe it just prefers higher values of N, not a higher ratio.

 

[Reefahholic]

maybe it just prefers higher values of N, not a higher ratio.

Could very well be!

 

[Reefahholic]

maybe it just prefers higher values of N, not a higher ratio.

One thing I did notice after I got up around 20 ppm NO3 is that the tissue gets thicker and color is a bit darker.

 

[sixty_reefer]

In the absence of dosing organic carbon sources that lack N and p, I expect that all heterotrophs, from bacteria to whales, are net sources of inorganic N and P, not sinks.

Bacteria and wales are not the same thing, bacteria employ enzymes and proteins to aid them them breaking down nutrients for energy wile producing byproduct including hydrogen and methane gas, vitamins and fatty acids that are beneficial for the health of autotrophs and heterotroph.
In other hand the wale will have a full digestive system that will release back to the water column around 80 to 90 percentile of all nutrients ingested causing them to be a net source as you mentioned, wales are also one of the larger nutrient sinks holes in the ocean capable of trapping those nutrients up to 90 years (blue wale) into their body mass, until the day that they perish and all the nutrients are recycled again into the nature life cycle.
These two heterotroph use nutrients in different ways causing only one to be a net source and the other a sink.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bacteria and wales are not the same thing, bacteria employ enzymes and proteins to aid them them breaking down nutrients for energy wile producing byproduct including hydrogen and methane gas, vitamins and fatty acids that are beneficial for the health of autotrophs and heterotroph.
In other hand the wale will have a full digestive system that will release back to the water column around 80 to 90 percentile of all nutrients ingested causing them to be a net source as you mentioned, wales are also one of the larger nutrient sinks holes in the ocean capable of trapping those nutrients up to 90 years (blue wale) into their body mass, until the day that they perish and all the nutrients are recycled again into the nature life cycle.
These two heterotroph use nutrients in different ways causing only one to be a net source and the other a sink.

I do not think that what you are claiming is correct in any way that impacts the fact that heterotrophs of all types that consume natural organic matter will be net releasers of inorganic N and P.

They have two uses for organic matter. One is to generate chemical energy by oxidative metabolism of organics. That process releases inorganic N and P.

They also use N and P from the organics they metabolize to make more of their own organic molecules that contain N and P. This process absolutely must require chemical energy to proceed, and since none of these processes can ever be 100% efficient, it takes more organics taken in than are made by the organism.

Hence they must be net releasers of N and P, unless they are artificially provided with organics for energy (the first process that I mentioned) that do not themselves contain N and P.

 

[Anxur]

I feel there is value in understanding the Redfield ratio. We shouldn't strive to maintain it, but it does show the importance of having NO3 and PO4 available. More than anything, it shows the value of having both Nitrogen and Phosphorus available in our systems. If you lack one or the other you will not grow beneficial organisms and are much more likely to have problems with cyano and dinoflagellates.

Dosing No3 and Po4 dinoflagellates disappear almost all in 7 days

 

[Superlightman]

Dosing No3 and Po4 dinoflagellates disappear almost all in 7 days

Wich levels helped?

 

[nano reef]

Seems alot of people are keeping theirs about where mine are so Good I can save money on a reactor or a hob refugium! My aim is 0.03 po4 currently 0.11 and 0.02 and my nitrates are about 15 in both

Brs is having a crazy clearance sale so I was looking into buying something to keep nitrates down. My tank looks good, corals are happy dont grow as fast as I would like though!

I do dose Mb7 quite a bit so I think that helps with nitrates because I use to have to use nopox! My tanks are also much older now too!

Is it possible that this algae is keeping nutrients bound into it and keeping down.

Posting a pic since there are a lot of comments here and maybe someone can tell me what it is and how to get rid of it! I have been looking all over the internet and even bought an alage book by Julian Sprung and still dont see it! It grow like a hedge thats been pruned lol short and dense and sort of flowery!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wich levels helped?

More than 5 ppm nitrate and 0.1 ppm phosphate would be my suggestion.

 

[MnFish1]

More than 5 ppm nitrate and 0.1 ppm phosphate would be my suggestion.

Would you place a maximum on those numbers?