HOBBY GRADE TEST KITS CAN OUTPERFORM ICP MEASUREMENTS…REALLY??

[Reefahholic]

Here’s my thoughts…we may not be able to provide you with perfection, but what we can provide you with are results. A lot of results.

I can show you system after system getting excellent results by utilizing ICP data and trace element dosing.

 

[MnFish1]

Why is this so important to you? Do you need validation that what you are doing is right? Do you have more at stake than just a hobbyist interest? What do you care if people want to follow what you do? As far as I can tell, there is not much on this thread that is truly inaccurate. If you like what you are doing, then just offer your opinion and move on... let the rest go. Trying to be more like @Thales, i see no compelling reason that the rest of this is truly hobbyist behavior.

It seems that - like multiple others - do not know how to use the quote function - without it - very few people know what exactly you're replying to...?

 

[areefer01]

Here’s my thoughts…we may not be able to provide you with perfection, but what we can provide you with are results. A lot of results.

I can show you system after system getting excellent results by utilizing ICP data and trace element dosing.

I believe the conundrum we are facing is what to do about the hobbyist having results that are not following an additive + ICP solution.

I've not seen anyone here say you are wrong or that it doesn't work. They may be asking if the juice is worth the squeeze but I think that may be more about personal preference or dollars and cents. Of course this is just my opinion.

I'd also go out on a limb and say that I personally believe you would equally have an awesome display should you choose not to run the method that you are. And that is tied to your skill level and discipline. Not the magic juice.

If this makes sense.

 

[Dan_P]

Ok, I’ve already asked this question twice, but never received an answer. What exactly are you guys looking for? Like, what data or information will you be happy with if he can get it.? I will ask Christoph if he can provide that information to you “if it’s possible” to get. I think if I remember correctly, some of the information is impossible to get. I do not remember the specifics, but I think it had something to do with they way the analysis are be performed maybe.? Something alone those lines. He can only give you guys what is possible to give, please let me know and I’ll try my best to get it.

An example of the information wanted for ICP results is what Hanna provides its customers for the Checkers. This information enables me to judge whether two measurements are statistically different.

A really gold standard response would be for the vendor to estimate the accuracy, for example, by shipping to themself six identical samples, three that would be tested back to back when they arrived and of the other three, one tested each day over three days. With this information we would be in a better position to judge whether two ICP results are different or not.

 

[Rick Mathew]

Ok, I’ve already asked this question twice, but never received an answer. What exactly are you guys looking for? Like, what data or information will you be happy with if he can get it.? I will ask Christoph if he can provide that information to you “if it’s possible” to get. I think if I remember correctly, some of the information is impossible to get. I do not remember the specifics, but I think it had something to do with they way the analysis are be performed maybe.? Something alone those lines. He can only give you guys what is possible to give, please let me know and I’ll try my best to get it.

The picture below is what would be helpful...The column "MEASUREMENT ERROR RANGE". Would provide a level of certainty in any actions one might take...

 

[jason2459]

1. It would be nice if you would post those results (i.e. were there replicates, etc)

I'm not the person you asked but there were some results I had captured and some others submitted a while ago

Saltmix Parameters bring on the test results

There was an excellent thread put together quite some time ago now by Billybeau1 and hilgert. I've referred to it may times to see if someone is close to the expected values of a particular saltmix. There can of course be slight variations and if any settling has occurred in the mix before use...

www.reef2reef.com

Compares my testing and a couple different vendors ICP testing.

 

[rtparty]

1. It would be nice if you would post those results (i.e. were there replicates, etc)
2. You SEEM to be implying that people are saying something that results in personal gain for them (not sure I agree)
3. I agree that its very difficult to replicate ICP results - and it really depends on their methods - but interested - in what your labs said?

All the results are posted in my Salt thread. If you go through each ICP result, you will see some odd readings. I can’t name one off the top of my head. I think one of them showed super super low barium or bromine that was way out of the norm and very likely incorrect. Again, input error or bad test?

The labs I talked to aren’t in the hobby and don’t offer $50 tests. Most said it’s impossible to charge $50 and give reliable, accurate, consistent results. Christoph has even acknowledged this. Has to do with calibrating the machine for every test and going through very expensive certifications. Every lab (3 at Universities and 1 private) said plan at least $500 minimum for a certified test. And even then they said being certain about 1 part per billion is still up in the air.

Any hobby lab I talk to is going to talk themselves up about how they are the best and most accurate. They aren’t going to admit to shortcomings and hurt their business.

 

[Reefahholic]

Here’s some results from Thomas Baker @Thomas Coral Fragz in our group. ICP testing and trace element dosing is working for him.

We can sit here and have this conversation about how ICP testing is inconsistent or less accurate than hobby grade test kits, but If it’s only words without results we’re wasting our time here. It’s not all that important if hobby grade test kits are 2% - 3% more accurate if you fail to get results.

 

[Rick Mathew]

Exactly, they’re SEVERELY LIMITED.

The only way they’re dealing with that is to dismantle ICP.

I find it rather strange that the CHEMISTRY forum is limited to 8-10 elements which take a lot of work to test with hobby grade test kits.

Interesting take on the goal of this experiment. We set out to test a relatively simple hypothesis "Based on commonly held beliefs that ICP is more accurate and precise method for saltwater aquarium testing, it is hypothesized that commonly available Hobby Grade Testing Kits when used correctly and with good laboratory practices, can provide equally accurate and precise results as compared to ICP Testing for selected elements.”

We did the experiment and came to our conclusion that our hypothesis was correct, but we can only speak for these 8 elements. If you re-read the section “WHEN TEST ACCURACY AND PRECISION ARE UNKNOWN” you can see our comments on the other elements and the value of ICP testing as well as our statement regarding what would be helpful from the ICP vendor community…

Actually I have a different way of looking at our findings…This should give reefers more confidence in their home test results as an effective tool to manage their systems along with their favorite ICP vendor.

 

[Rick Mathew]

Here’s some results from Thomas Baker @Thomas Coral Fragz in our group. ICP testing and trace element dosing is working for him.

We can sit here and have this conversation about how ICP testing is inconsistent or less accurate than hobby grade test kits, but If it’s only words without results we’re wasting our time here. It’s not all that important if hobby grade test kits are 2% - 3% more accurate if you fail to get results.

Very nice!!

 

[Reefahholic]

Any hobby lab I talk to is going to talk themselves up about how they are the best and most accurate. They aren’t going to admit to shortcomings and hurt their business.

We saw that just recently. Nothing was found in the salt. They tested it and nothing was there, but several reefs were going down left and right.

 

[Reefahholic]

Interesting take on the goal of this experiment. We set out to test a relatively simple hypothesis "Based on commonly held beliefs that ICP is more accurate and precise method for saltwater aquarium testing, it is hypothesized that commonly available Hobby Grade Testing Kits when used correctly and with good laboratory practices, can provide equally accurate and precise results as compared to ICP Testing for selected elements.”

We did the experiment and came to our conclusion that our hypothesis was correct, but we can only speak for these 8 elements. If you re-read the section “WHEN TEST ACCURACY AND PRECISION ARE UNKNOWN” you can see our comments on the other elements and the value of ICP testing as well as our statement regarding what would be helpful from the ICP vendor community…

Actually I have a different way of looking at our findings…This should give reefers more confidence in their home test results as an effective tool to manage their systems along with their favorite ICP vendor.

How many elements are you currently able to test for?

 

[Reefahholic]

Very nice!!

That big Millie formed a “glove like” structure in the middle to funnel small fish, snails, or anemones floating by. Thomas had to throw a large steak in there every night to keep it happy. Haha

 

[areefer01]

Interesting take on the goal of this experiment. We set out to test a relatively simple hypothesis "Based on commonly held beliefs that ICP is more accurate and precise method for saltwater aquarium testing, it is hypothesized that commonly available Hobby Grade Testing Kits when used correctly and with good laboratory practices, can provide equally accurate and precise results as compared to ICP Testing for selected elements.”

We did the experiment and came to our conclusion that our hypothesis was correct, but we can only speak for these 8 elements. If you re-read the section “WHEN TEST ACCURACY AND PRECISION ARE UNKNOWN” you can see our comments on the other elements and the value of ICP testing as well as our statement regarding what would be helpful from the ICP vendor community…

Actually I have a different way of looking at our findings…This should give reefers more confidence in their home test results as an effective tool to manage their systems along with their favorite ICP vendor.

This is when it would be nice for forum software to allow filters based on a column or row so one doesn't have to go back to page, post, 1...

For those interested the 8 are:

• Calcium
• Copper
• Iodine
• Iron
• Magnesium
• Phosphorous
• Potassium
• Silica

 

[Reefahholic]

@Rick Mathew just to show you the speed of growth from top to bottom. Look at the date on top pic.

 

[ReeferTang44]

I hate to be that annoying guy that’s asking everyone for help quite often but if you guys have a minute can you look at my most recent post/threads about corals and the one I’m concerned about. I just would like some peace of mind if there going to be ok or if I need to do something then what do I need to do.

 

[Reefahholic]

You don't, it's all trending, generalities, and hope

Ok, so you’re admitting that how you’re current way of testing is no better. So the question is why such strong opinions in regards to ICP results?

 

[Reefahholic]

Every testing vendor says that.

Correctness and repeatability of ICP-MS seawater measurements

Hello Everyone! This is a „takeout“ from the reef moonshiners thread, which can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/moonshiners-method-feedback.996193/ One point raised in this thread is that quality from seawater labs is often seen with a lot of skepticism. I would like to quote...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Reefahholic]

I hate to be that annoying guy that’s asking everyone for help quite often but if you guys have a minute can you look at my most recent post/threads about corals and the one I’m concerned about. I just would like some peace of mind if there going to be ok or if I need to do something then what do I need to do.

PM me and I’ll help you.

 

[Rick Mathew]

How many elements are you currently able to test for?

10...Counting Alkalinity and Nitrate...Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorous, Silica, Iron, Iodine, Copper, & potassium. I can also tests for strontium but the tests is not good it has a high degree of variability 30-40% and I think Salifert is discontinuing their test..