Hypo and Cupramine Copper Treatment Combined Success!

[DsbReefer]

Aloha from Hawaii New here, been lurking but love you guys already!! I run my system on a DSB and it keeps water params pretty stable. But recently I made the mistake of bringing in too many fish from the wild in without QT and some got frosted with what looked like velvet.

Normally I'm fin but I got a couple puffers from a murky lagoon and I should've known better!

Just wanted to share my success treating Velvet with hypo and Cupramine at .35ppm. I know it's frowned upon by some but Seachem themsleves suggest it here: https://forum.seachem.com/forum/general-discussion/2385-cupramine-and-salinity

With that salinity level, I would definitely lower the Cupramine concentration to around 0.35-0.4 mg/L. Continue to keep a close eye on all of the fish to ensure they are able to tolerate the treatment. The nice thing about Cupramine is that it is still very effective as low as 0.25-0.3mg/L.​

Here' how they are doin gin QT fir a few weeks and I'm going to drip them back up over a few days to 1.025.
I know that's controversial as well but It's very interesting the studies that have been done, cited over at Wet Web Media on how quickly one can drop into Hypo.
I mean even doing a FW dip, then going straight into hypo!

hypoOSTtherapyart.htm

I HAVE made the mistake in the past of trying to drip TOO SLOWLY transferring from the DT to QT in a bucket, even over a couple days, with an airstone and had the fish emerge disoriented- most liekly due to rapid PH change.

Has anyone here tried going straight from a FW dip to hyo with success?

Some pics from QT tank week 3:
(I will be separating into different systems once /if the clownfish pair but worse case I have 4 separate areas to put them. I don;t want to gample that this might be the unicorn Clownfish Harem of different colored CF Lol.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Aloha from Hawaii New here, been lurking but love you guys already!! I run my system on a DSB and it keeps water params pretty stable. But recently I made the mistake of bringing in too many fish from the wild in without QT and some got frosted with what looked like velvet.

Normally I'm fin but I got a couple puffers from a murky lagoon and I should've known better!

Just wanted to share my success treating Velvet with hypo and Cupramine at .35ppm. I know it's frowned upon by some but Seachem themsleves suggest it here: https://forum.seachem.com/forum/general-discussion/2385-cupramine-and-salinity

With that salinity level, I would definitely lower the Cupramine concentration to around 0.35-0.4 mg/L. Continue to keep a close eye on all of the fish to ensure they are able to tolerate the treatment. The nice thing about Cupramine is that it is still very effective as low as 0.25-0.3mg/L.​

Here' how they are doin gin QT fir a few weeks and I'm going to drip them back up over a few days to 1.025.
I know that's controversial as well but It's very interesting the studies that have been done, cited over at Wet Web Media on how quickly one can drop into Hypo.
I mean even doing a FW dip, then going straight into hypo!

hypoOSTtherapyart.htm

I HAVE made the mistake in the past of trying to drip TOO SLOWLY transferring from the DT to QT in a bucket, even over a couple days, with an airstone and had the fish emerge disoriented- most liekly due to rapid PH change.

Has anyone here tried going straight from a FW dip to hyo with success?

Some pics from QT tank week 3:
(I will be separating into different systems once /if the clownfish pair but worse case I have 4 separate areas to put them. I don;t want to gample that this might be the unicorn Clownfish Harem of different colored CF Lol.

Great to see but what's odd is Hypo does not address velvet (or was it ich?) and cupramine takes effect at .375.

 

[Romadov]

I wanna try that! But are you sure velvet/ich can not live in 0.4 ppm?

 

[Romadov]

Great to see but what's odd is Hypo does not address velvet (or was it ich?) and cupramine takes effect at .375.

Does past .375 ich and velvet will die? And how many days max can i run cupramine?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Does past .375 ich and velvet will die? And how many days max can i run cupramine?

Cupramine max is .5 with .45 being safe range

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Aloha from Hawaii New here, been lurking but love you guys already!! I run my system on a DSB and it keeps water params pretty stable. But recently I made the mistake of bringing in too many fish from the wild in without QT and some got frosted with what looked like velvet.

Normally I'm fin but I got a couple puffers from a murky lagoon and I should've known better!

Just wanted to share my success treating Velvet with hypo and Cupramine at .35ppm. I know it's frowned upon by some but Seachem themsleves suggest it here: https://forum.seachem.com/forum/general-discussion/2385-cupramine-and-salinity

With that salinity level, I would definitely lower the Cupramine concentration to around 0.35-0.4 mg/L. Continue to keep a close eye on all of the fish to ensure they are able to tolerate the treatment. The nice thing about Cupramine is that it is still very effective as low as 0.25-0.3mg/L.​

Here' how they are doin gin QT fir a few weeks and I'm going to drip them back up over a few days to 1.025.
I know that's controversial as well but It's very interesting the studies that have been done, cited over at Wet Web Media on how quickly one can drop into Hypo.
I mean even doing a FW dip, then going straight into hypo!

hypoOSTtherapyart.htm

I HAVE made the mistake in the past of trying to drip TOO SLOWLY transferring from the DT to QT in a bucket, even over a couple days, with an airstone and had the fish emerge disoriented- most liekly due to rapid PH change.

Has anyone here tried going straight from a FW dip to hyo with success?

Some pics from QT tank week 3:
(I will be separating into different systems once /if the clownfish pair but worse case I have 4 separate areas to put them. I don;t want to gample that this might be the unicorn Clownfish Harem of different colored CF Lol.

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Hyposalinity doesn't control Amyloodinium (velvet) so in that case, just running Cupramine at the full dose would be the better option. The reason that it is suggested to lower the Cupramine dose when running hypo is that ionic copper is more toxic in softer water. Better option would be Coppersafe, which is an amine-chelated copper and can be dosed in FW or marine.

The time and rate at which you can move fish into and out of hypo varies by species, as well as by the actual degree of change made (1.012 to 1.022 is much less stress than 1.009 to 1.026 for example). There also seems to be that the stress from the change is not linear - fish have a blood salinity (specific gravity) of around 1.019. As you change their water away from that point, the stress seems to increase disproportionally.

I saw a freshwater tilapia cichlid dropped into a marine tank (by a toddler with a net!) that survived. I've also moved moorish idols into full hypo (by accident!) in less than 30 minutes.

As you know - the salinity of the water can be dropped much faster than it can be raised. You mentioned using some sort of container to make that change? It is always best to make the change (up or down) in the QT itself, with an operating filter, heater, etc.

If you haven't already seen it, here is my article on hyposalinity:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[DsbReefer]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Hyposalinity doesn't control Amyloodinium (velvet) so in that case, just running Cupramine at the full dose would be the better option. The reason that it is suggested to lower the Cupramine dose when running hypo is that ionic copper is more toxic in softer water. Better option would be Coppersafe, which is an amine-chelated copper and can be dosed in FW or marine.

The time and rate at which you can move fish into and out of hypo varies by species, as well as by the actual degree of change made (1.012 to 1.022 is much less stress than 1.009 to 1.026 for example). There also seems to be that the stress from the change is not linear - fish have a blood salinity (specific gravity) of around 1.019. As you change their water away from that point, the stress seems to increase disproportionally.

I saw a freshwater tilapia cichlid dropped into a marine tank (by a toddler with a net!) that survived. I've also moved moorish idols into full hypo (by accident!) in less than 30 minutes.

As you know - the salinity of the water can be dropped much faster than it can be raised. You mentioned using some sort of container to make that change? It is always best to make the change (up or down) in the QT itself, with an operating filter, heater, etc.

If you haven't already seen it, here is my article on hyposalinity:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks for the thorough write-up on hypo! SAving that for sure. I knwo I'm one of those who just keeps adding a little extra salinity to go up a couple points per day. Good to have a schedule.

Have you experimented with what Bob Fenner wrote on WWM regarding FW dipping and putting straight into hypo? Maybe that works for 1.022 to 1.012 it works fine for most fish. But that makes sense about exponential change in the effects of salinity.

Interesting though here on the Big Island of Hawaii with the largest aquifer in the US underneath us, our side of the island is often leaching extremely cold FW into the normal salinity of the Ocean and I see fish swimming from high salinity warm water to brackish and staying there to feed, like tanks for example. Or even come to inland brackish ponds for the night. Of course they can usually go back if they are having issues I guess.

So you are saying that the Coppersafe ion may work better at lower concentrations and lower salinity than Cupramine? Or just that better to use Cupramine and no hypo.

I did both because what I throughout was velvet also was showing looking like ich on one fish. Definitely wanting to treat the simplest most holistic route moving forward.

 

[DsbReefer]

Great to see but what's odd is Hypo does not address velvet (or was it ich?) and cupramine takes effect at .375.

Definitely saw some ich on one of those clowns I rescued from Petco... and body slime sloughing off of another fish. I really wish there was a one hospital tank to rule them all that I could bring fish from the wild or other fish in for a few weeks and always keep up and running.

I'll keep chasing this unicorn while I learn more here standing on shoulders of giants that came before me!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the thorough write-up on hypo! SAving that for sure. I knwo I'm one of those who just keeps adding a little extra salinity to go up a couple points per day. Good to have a schedule.

Have you experimented with what Bob Fenner wrote on WWM regarding FW dipping and putting straight into hypo? Maybe that works for 1.022 to 1.012 it works fine for most fish. But that makes sense about exponential change in the effects of salinity.

Interesting though here on the Big Island of Hawaii with the largest aquifer in the US underneath us, our side of the island is often leaching extremely cold FW into the normal salinity of the Ocean and I see fish swimming from high salinity warm water to brackish and staying there to feed, like tanks for example. Or even come to inland brackish ponds for the night. Of course they can usually go back if they are having issues I guess.

So you are saying that the Coppersafe ion may work better at lower concentrations and lower salinity than Cupramine? Or just that better to use Cupramine and no hypo.

I did both because what I throughout was velvet also was showing looking like ich on one fish. Definitely wanting to treat the simplest most holistic route moving forward.

Sorry no, Coppersafe only works above 2 ppm. What I meant was full dose coppersafe can be run at lower salinity.

I’ve never tried Bob’s method. Seems counterintuitive to me - just moving the fish into hypo would be less stressful. Also, Bob was even more old school than me (grin) so you’re correct, he was probably keeping his fish at around 1.021 and taking them down to 1.012. People now days tend to keep their fish at 1.025 and full hypo for ich is now known to need to be 1.009 - a much larger drop.

 

[DsbReefer]

Ah, connecting some dots now... still, I know this hobby cultivates patience but why not just lower to 1.021 via drip over a day then drop all they way to hyp - for most fish?

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Hyposalinity doesn't control Amyloodinium (velvet) so in that case, just running Cupramine at the full dose would be the better option. The reason that it is suggested to lower the Cupramine dose when running hypo is that ionic copper is more toxic in softer water. Better option would be Coppersafe, which is an amine-chelated copper and can be dosed in FW or marine.

The time and rate at which you can move fish into and out of hypo varies by species, as well as by the actual degree of change made (1.012 to 1.022 is much less stress than 1.009 to 1.026 for example). There also seems to be that the stress from the change is not linear - fish have a blood salinity (specific gravity) of around 1.019. As you change their water away from that point, the stress seems to increase disproportionally.

I saw a freshwater tilapia cichlid dropped into a marine tank (by a toddler with a net!) that survived. I've also moved moorish idols into full hypo (by accident!) in less than 30 minutes.

As you know - the salinity of the water can be dropped much faster than it can be raised. You mentioned using some sort of container to make that change? It is always best to make the change (up or down) in the QT itself, with an operating filter, heater, etc.

If you haven't already seen it, here is my article on hyposalinity:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

One more thing... I reread your hypo writeup again, but didn't see much on reversing the process... I'm just adding about 3 cups of salt to a half-gallon of tankwater, letting it sit for 15 mins then setting the jar in the 20 Gallon hospital tank to slowly diffuse and bring the salinity up 2 pts per day. Does that sound like a reasonable method? Or is there a better way?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ah, connecting some dots now... still, I know this hobby cultivates patience but why not just lower to 1.021 via drip over a day then drop all they way to hyp - for most fish?

One more thing... I reread your hypo writeup again, but didn't see much on reversing the process... I'm just adding about 3 cups of salt to a half-gallon of tankwater, letting it sit for 15 mins then setting the jar in the 20 Gallon hospital tank to slowly diffuse and bring the salinity up 2 pts per day. Does that sound like a reasonable method? Or is there a better way?

That will work, but you should aerate the water heavily to try and balance the pH.

 

[Romadov]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Hyposalinity doesn't control Amyloodinium (velvet) so in that case, just running Cupramine at the full dose would be the better option. The reason that it is suggested to lower the Cupramine dose when running hypo is that ionic copper is more toxic in softer water. Better option would be Coppersafe, which is an amine-chelated copper and can be dosed in FW or marine.

The time and rate at which you can move fish into and out of hypo varies by species, as well as by the actual degree of change made (1.012 to 1.022 is much less stress than 1.009 to 1.026 for example). There also seems to be that the stress from the change is not linear - fish have a blood salinity (specific gravity) of around 1.019. As you change their water away from that point, the stress seems to increase disproportionally.

I saw a freshwater tilapia cichlid dropped into a marine tank (by a toddler with a net!) that survived. I've also moved moorish idols into full hypo (by accident!) in less than 30 minutes.

As you know - the salinity of the water can be dropped much faster than it can be raised. You mentioned using some sort of container to make that change? It is always best to make the change (up or down) in the QT itself, with an operating filter, heater, etc.

If you haven't already seen it, here is my article on hyposalinity:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

Hi, i want to ask is flukes really can not survive below 1.012 sg? Because humblefish stated in 2019 to do hyposalinity for flukes with 1.009sg. Should i do 1.012 or 1.009 for flukes? Thankyou! (It would be great if i only have to do 1.012sg)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi, i want to ask is flukes really can not survive below 1.012 sg? Because humblefish stated in 2019 to do hyposalinity for flukes with 1.009sg. Should i do 1.012 or 1.009 for flukes? Thankyou! (It would be great if i only have to do 1.012sg)

1.009 is a combined hypo treatment for ich AND flukes. It is more stressful to the fish. If you don’t need to treat for ich, then a 1.012 SG will work for flukes alone and is safer to sensitive fish.

 

[Romadov]

1.009 is a combined hypo treatment for ich AND flukes. It is more stressful to the fish. If you don’t need to treat for ich, then a 1.012 SG will work for flukes alone and is safer to sensitive fish.

Okay thanks you very much