Interesting 'New' LED Light

[Superlightman]

Thanks for the information.
Well I not care about growth only, but more how the tank look during the day the fish and the colours of sps in daylight is even more important, I don't like fake colours. For me important is a nice blue phase in the morning and evening that show the fluorescence ,but daytime I want nice colours nothing artificial, don't want leds which are not able to show the nice colours of the fish and sps. And Actully I get better results on sps with white lights, for lps I got better under blue.
Will see when they will be video from the new light, but as you say on video we not all time see the true colours

 

[oreo54]

Thanks for the information.
Well I not care about growth only, but more how the tank look during the day the fish and the colours of sps in daylight is even more important, I don't like fake colours. For me important is a nice blue phase in the morning and evening that show the fluorescence ,but daytime I want nice colours nothing artificial, don't want leds which are not able to show the nice colours of the fish and sps. And Actully I get better results on sps with white lights, for lps I got better under blue.
Will see when they will be video from the new light, but as you say on video we not all time see the true colours

The uno 2 probably won't be it .. well with a lot of power at your preferred more daylight spectrum

" On paper" the Mitras, Coralcare and Radion Marine are probably better.


Look for lights w some warm white, cyan, amber, red diodes to balance the blue.
A 1:1 ratio of " blue" to " not blue".

Thing is most are currently " weighted" heavily in blue.

The uno chart has a lot of info.

Next, the more channels the better .
Keep in mind many halides and t5's present that same false colors scenario but do it with effectively a amber/ green/ blue created white.
Effect is punchy but err " fake" colors.
See cyan/ green/amber/some low red spikes in output. This for a 14000k bulb.
Still cri is in the 60's. Even 10000k bulbs have low cri.
Cri isn't the be all end all but
"20000k" gets worse.
Fortunately mh's do smear the spectrum more than say t5 but still more of a false color thing. Granted better than many leds which use blue plus yellow for white led (whites 6500k or higher).

A " better color rendering" led:

* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
LED Blue (470nm) [120°] x2
LED Cyan (500nm) [120°] x4
LED CoolWhite (8000K) [120°] x6
LED WarmWhite (3000K) [120°] x2
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux: 1,348 lm
Radiant flux: 4,792 mW
PPF: 21.2 umol/s
TCP: 10000 K
CRI: 89
λp: 457 nm
Color: #7BFFFF
----------------------------------------

* PERFORMANCE @ 30cm
----------------------------------------
Irradiance: 5.65 W/m²/s
Illuminance: 1,589 lx
PPFD: 24.9 umol/m²/s
----------------------------------------

by RAYCAL 2.0 @ 1.023world
http://spectra.1023world.net/

Few would buy that light....but your colors will be " natural".
Tone will be "aqua" or err windex-y

Point is what makes a natural combination of leds can guide you to, hopefully, one you can like.
Manuf build what users will buy. They don't drive the market, it drives them.
They may " experiment" a bit but mostly based on users in the past.

 

[Biologic]

Thanks for the information.
Well I not care about growth only, but more how the tank look during the day the fish and the colours of sps in daylight is even more important, I don't like fake colours. For me important is a nice blue phase in the morning and evening that show the fluorescence ,but daytime I want nice colours nothing artificial, don't want leds which are not able to show the nice colours of the fish and sps. And Actully I get better results on sps with white lights, for lps I got better under blue.
Will see when they will be video from the new light, but as you say on video we not all time see the true colours

So I understand you don't want “fake colors”, but essentially there is no reef lighting that can match nature. Not even metal halide. Can reproduce the spectrum down below. This is shot from BlueHarbor Japan 5 meters below the water. Notice the astounding amount of cyan, green, and yellow.

No fixtures has even the hint of yellow in the spectrum. Even the G6 is removing the cyan LEDs, which I feel is a mistake as it removes a significant amount of red fluorescent protein excitation spectrums. Also note that the spectral peak is at cyan vs our LED’s are peaking at 450 nm.

So by default all modern LED fixtures are totally unnatural. The spectrum of a Iswaki 6500K MH is more natural with ATI blue plus bulbs would be more natural lighting. Unfortunately that tech will go extinct in possibly 10 years.

 

[Biologic]

The uno 2 probably won't be it .. well with a lot of power at your preferred more daylight spectrum

" On paper" the Mitras, Coralcare and Radion Marine are probably better.


Look for lights w some warm white, cyan, amber, red diodes to balance the blue.
A 1:1 ratio of " blue" to " not blue".

Thing is most are currently " weighted" heavily in blue.

The uno chart has a lot of info.

Next, the more channels the better .
Keep in mind many halides and t5's present that same false colors scenario but do it with effectively a amber/ green/ blue created white.
Effect is punchy but err " fake" colors.
See cyan/ green/amber/some low red spikes in output. This for a 14000k bulb.
Still cri is in the 60's. Even 10000k bulbs have low cri.
Cri isn't the be all end all but
"20000k" gets worse.
Fortunately mh's do smear the spectrum more than say t5 but still more of a false color thing. Granted better than many leds which use blue plus yellow for white led (whites 6500k or higher).

A " better color rendering" led:


Few would buy that light....but your colors will be " natural".
Tone will be "aqua" or err windex-y

Point is what makes a natural combination of leds can guide you to, hopefully, one you can like.
Manuf build what users will buy. They don't drive the market, it drives them.
They may " experiment" a bit but mostly based on users in the past.

Speaking about CRI - look how vastly different colors look like under the ocean. These are Crayola marker tops.

 

[oreo54]

Speaking about CRI - look how vastly different colors look like under the ocean. These are Crayola marker tops.

Yea I was just thinking of adding how CRI, since, based on colors at 6500k-ish will drop regardless of err "vehicle"..
Each spectrum will wash out or highlight specific colors based on it's composition. In other words more "different" than better in a sense.

Even from my non-coral perspective it pains me to se the use of high k horrible white diodes.

Secondly what many have gotten used to as "err "natural" color is far from it.

Third who wants "natural color" raise your hand..

Probably the most natural light (@2.5M) ever built:

For some odd reason nobody but DIY's actually built any "non-white" led reef lights or ones with really GOOD white chips (AFAICT). Of course the usual blending issues do come in here w/ just adding say cyan/green, amber/red chips.
Quality whites (>95CRI) are expensive.

ATI blue plus is a blue/ green/amber bulb with little output below amber...


Addendum:

How many people have tried this after reading the thread? I did it this evening. I run GHL Mitras 7206. I dropped the 7700k and the 6200k white lights down to about 20%. I increased red to 50% and green to around 40%. It's an incredible visual difference. Fish and corals have way more pop.

No white light

You can have this without any white LEDs - just use the RGB trick. It means Red, Green and Blue. Look at the Pictures from my tank - no White LEDs there Sincerely Lasse The thing that you guys are missing on this is that there are two different color scales. So let's say your mixing paint...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Biologic]

Yea I was just thinking of adding how CRI, since, based on colors at 6500k-ish will drop regardless of err "vehicle"..
Each spectrum will wash out or highlight specific colors based on it's composition. In other words more "different" than better in a sense.

Even from my non-coral perspective it pains me to se the use of high k horrible white diodes.

Secondly what many have gotten used to as "err "natural" color is far from it.

Third who wants "natural color" raise your hand..

Probably the most natural light (@2.5M) ever built:

For some odd reason nobody but DIY's actually built any "non-white" led reef lights or ones with really GOOD white chips (AFAICT). Of course the usual blending issues do come in here w/ just adding say cyan/green, amber/red chips.
Quality whites (>95CRI) are expensive.

ATI blue plus is a blue/ green/amber bulb with little output below amber...


Addendum:

No white light

You can have this without any white LEDs - just use the RGB trick. It means Red, Green and Blue. Look at the Pictures from my tank - no White LEDs there Sincerely Lasse The thing that you guys are missing on this is that there are two different color scales. So let's say your mixing paint...

www.reef2reef.com

I would love that marine blue LED’s in a fixture. To me, if we want to continue advancing the hobby, we have to continue to imitate nature as closely as possible. With LED’s we can make spectrum however we want. If while we are at work, we don’t want cyan, it can turn off before we get home. It’s weird how at the very least least research hasn’t picked up more natural spectrum LED fixtures.

also, one of my favorite times in the day is when my Reefi UNO has 100% 400, 420 435, 450, 470, and lime at 100%. To me aesthetically and also, naturally (spectrally speaking for early morning sallow depth) this is most appealing.

Later in the day, the spectrum shifts significantly more white, all channels at 100%. I need to written about my musings on this. Just never posted it.

 

[Lingwendil]

Yea I was just thinking of adding how CRI, since, based on colors at 6500k-ish will drop regardless of err "vehicle"..
Each spectrum will wash out or highlight specific colors based on it's composition. In other words more "different" than better in a sense.

Even from my non-coral perspective it pains me to se the use of high k horrible white diodes.

Secondly what many have gotten used to as "err "natural" color is far from it.

Third who wants "natural color" raise your hand..

Probably the most natural light (@2.5M) ever built:

For some odd reason nobody but DIY's actually built any "non-white" led reef lights or ones with really GOOD white chips (AFAICT). Of course the usual blending issues do come in here w/ just adding say cyan/green, amber/red chips.
Quality whites (>95CRI) are expensive.

ATI blue plus is a blue/ green/amber bulb with little output below amber...


Addendum:

No white light

You can have this without any white LEDs - just use the RGB trick. It means Red, Green and Blue. Look at the Pictures from my tank - no White LEDs there Sincerely Lasse The thing that you guys are missing on this is that there are two different color scales. So let's say your mixing paint...

www.reef2reef.com

Are these available at a hobbyist level? Can't find anything on them with that part number in the first pic.

 

[oreo54]

Are these available at a hobbyist level? Can't find anything on them with that part number in the first pic.

Good question. The assembled lights ( no dimming) are available in Japan ( only?)
and considering the lack of " functions" and the low output, quite pricy if I remember correctly

Kyocera does sell violet based chips. I've communicated with them in the past and they were accomidating.

Wouldn't hurt to hitting them up with an email.

 

[Biologic]

Good question. The assembled lights ( no dimming) are available in Japan ( only?)
and considering the lack of " functions" and the low output, quite pricy if I remember correctly

Kyocera does sell violet based chips. I've communicated with them in the past and they were accomidating.

Wouldn't hurt to hitting them up with an email.

Japan has amazing techniques for reefing aside from lighting that just do not make an impact in the US yet. BlueHarbor Japan, Volx Lighting, Spectra SP2000 lighting system. I really enjoy loosely translating their work with google translate lol

 

[Superlightman]

So which product on the market is the closest to this?
@ oreo with all your knowledge why you not build one for use? ;-)

 

[oreo54]

So which product on the market is the closest to this?
@ oreo with all your knowledge why you not build one for use? ;-)

Sure you can find one in this...

General DIY LED thread

so we have lots of derailing talk in other threads about DIY lights and what would be the optimal LED layout these days. would love to start a conversation about this. As for a project i'm working on. I'm planning a diy light for a frag tank in my fish room as something for some tinkering...

www.reef2reef.com

Kyocera strength and weakness it is a violet pump with select phosphors making it just a err "tube-like"

Besides "aqua" or "Windex" tanks have a stigma.

Manuf are already pulling or ignoring cyan.
Yet it's crucial for "natural". Along with green.

Things are somewhat the same in the freshwater world. Between punchy RGB only and high cri daylight chips popular opinion favors the RGB array w/ giant holes in the spectrum.

"Unnatural" wins almost every time.
Not wrong, just is.

Kyocera will probably never reach the US and economically probably the right decision.

Phillips coral care even get knocks for really being too natural.

Ask yourself why t5's nor MH's never "salted up" for a natural look..
Sequence of 14000k-ish. Well as close as one can get.
Aquablue special is "off the charts" but probably closest 5m tube.

Old 14000k mh that also wasn't off the charts (rare find):

Without phosphers the "impossible" yet possible LED.
Off the chart but above the 14000k line

I could spend all day on permutations..
Closer K temp but a bit lumpy.
Doesn't matter.. nobody will 1) source all the nm's required and 2) run like 20 channels.

AFAICT the fact Kyocera did it w/ led and phophors and emulated natural lights at depth but not at depth is completely new.. well except for using say 6500k MH's and using real depth i.e 3-5M deep tanks..

sorry, got carried away a bit..
Actually Ushio has a true 14000K CCT bulb but it is ratio-ed different than nature.
A reminder: dotted line is ocean spectrum at 5 Meters.

Addendum: Spectrum wise there may be some lights that are "natural" once the depth you are emulating filters out almost all other wavelengths but "blue"...100 meters or so..?

 

[Biologic]

Manuf are already pulling or ignoring cyan.
Yet it's crucial for "natural". Along with green.

I think this is a mistake. Red and Orange Fluorescent Protein requires strong cyan peaks, but I guess they are using white LED's that have just enough?

I think another reason why is cost and form factor. You cannot possibly put in all the LED's you put into a DIY fixture and have proper mixing. Then for manufactures its a cost issue.

Re: Kyocera -- though not putting out that lamp into the US market, I get that!. At least putting out those LED's for US LED fixture designers to have access to would be very useful! I searched and they are no where to be found.

 

[oreo54]

I think this is a mistake. Red and Orange Fluorescent Protein requires strong cyan peaks, but I guess they are using white LED's that have just enough?

I think another reason why is cost and form factor. You cannot possibly put in all the LED's you put into a DIY fixture and have proper mixing. Then for manufactures its a cost issue.

Re: Kyocera -- though not putting out that lamp into the US market, I get that!. At least putting out those LED's for US LED fixture designers to have access to would be very useful! I searched and they are no where to be found.

Well the whites they use (high output low cri) usually have little cyan..
I won't post tons of pics again. Just mine this old thread..

High vs Low CRI led comparisons?

www.plantedtank.net

CREE had a tendency to enhance red yet still ignore cyan to up their CRI.
CRI is a numbers game as is K temp. 3 +8 = 11 but so is 5 +6..

Yea I've been "complaining" for years that no manuf ever phosphored any "reef centric" chips.
Just not a large enough market and multicolored arrays are good enough.
They certainly are no "worse" (as to natural) as any of the old tech (when built right).

Cyan deficiency can be covered by "regular blue" for the most part also.

Kyocera debuts violet-based white and color packaged LEDs, lights Japanese façade

The new Wacoal Holdings building in Kyoto is lit with a mesh of white and color packaged LEDs that are based on a violet emitter or pump, and red, green, and blue phosphors.

www.ledsmagazine.com

KYOCERA Develops World's First Full-Spectrum LED Aquarium Lighting; Innovative technology mimics sunlight at specific underwater depths; designed to optimize growth of corals and marine plants | News Releases | KYOCERA

Kyocera announced that the company developed the world’s first full-spectrum LED lighting for aquariums.

global.kyocera.com

 

[areefer01]

Sure you can find one in this...

General DIY LED thread

so we have lots of derailing talk in other threads about DIY lights and what would be the optimal LED layout these days. would love to start a conversation about this. As for a project i'm working on. I'm planning a diy light for a frag tank in my fish room as something for some tinkering...

www.reef2reef.com

Kyocera strength and weakness it is a violet pump with select phosphors making it just a err "tube-like"

Besides "aqua" or "Windex" tanks have a stigma.

Manuf are already pulling or ignoring cyan.
Yet it's crucial for "natural". Along with green.

Things are somewhat the same in the freshwater world. Between punchy RGB only and high cri daylight chips popular opinion favors the RGB array w/ giant holes in the spectrum.

"Unnatural" wins almost every time.
Not wrong, just is.

Kyocera will probably never reach the US and economically probably the right decision.

Phillips coral care even get knocks for really being too natural.

Ask yourself why t5's nor MH's never "salted up" for a natural look..
Sequence of 14000k-ish. Well as close as one can get.
Aquablue special is "off the charts" but probably closest 5m tube.

Old 14000k mh that also wasn't off the charts (rare find):

Without phosphers the "impossible" yet possible LED.
Off the chart but above the 14000k line

I could spend all day on permutations..
Closer K temp but a bit lumpy.
Doesn't matter.. nobody will 1) source all the nm's required and 2) run like 20 channels.

AFAICT the fact Kyocera did it w/ led and phophors and emulated natural lights at depth but not at depth is completely new.. well except for using say 6500k MH's and using real depth i.e 3-5M deep tanks..

sorry, got carried away a bit..
Actually Ushio has a true 14000K CCT bulb but it is ratio-ed different than nature.
A reminder: dotted line is ocean spectrum at 5 Meters.

Addendum: Spectrum wise there may be some lights that are "natural" once the depth you are emulating filters out almost all other wavelengths but "blue"...100 meters or so..?

One could argue that the most natural looking light kit on the market is the Coral Care Gen 2. Second to that would probably be the Kessil using their default settings. That is if one is going for LEDs. As a user of both SKY and Kessil (not together) these are the only lights I've found that do not lose par if I make any changes.

Rapid LED had a good multi channel years back with Borealis array. It had 13 lime LED's. I had reached out last year but they are not able to make them anymore. Good array.

 

[oreo54]

One could argue that the most natural looking light kit on the market is the Coral Care Gen 2. Second to that would probably be the Kessil using their default settings. That is if one is going for LEDs. As a user of both SKY and Kessil (not together) these are the only lights I've found that do not lose par if I make any changes.

Rapid LED had a good multi channel years back with Borealis array. It had 13 lime LED's. I had reached out last year but they are not able to make them anymore. Good array.

On a spectrum basis I'm not sure I'd include the Kessil). It may look good but....

AP9x

 

[areefer01]

On a spectrum basis I'm not sure I'd include the Kessil). It may look good but....

AP9x

True but it doesn't look like windex or as bad as any of the AB+ combos. I do agree it is subjective of course to different eyes.

 

[Biologic]

Well the whites they use (high output low cri) usually have little cyan..
I won't post tons of pics again. Just mine this old thread..

High vs Low CRI led comparisons?

www.plantedtank.net

CREE had a tendency to enhance red yet still ignore cyan to up their CRI.
CRI is a numbers game as is K temp. 3 +8 = 11 but so is 5 +6..

Yea I've been "complaining" for years that no manuf ever phosphored any "reef centric" chips.
Just not a large enough market and multicolored arrays are good enough.
They certainly are no "worse" (as to natural) as any of the old tech (when built right).

Cyan deficiency can be covered by "regular blue" for the most part also.

Kyocera debuts violet-based white and color packaged LEDs, lights Japanese façade

The new Wacoal Holdings building in Kyoto is lit with a mesh of white and color packaged LEDs that are based on a violet emitter or pump, and red, green, and blue phosphors.

www.ledsmagazine.com

KYOCERA Develops World's First Full-Spectrum LED Aquarium Lighting; Innovative technology mimics sunlight at specific underwater depths; designed to optimize growth of corals and marine plants | News Releases | KYOCERA

Kyocera announced that the company developed the world’s first full-spectrum LED lighting for aquariums.

global.kyocera.com

I wonder if the weed guys are this crazy over LED's. I can assume they are not growing cannabis with just BLUE and RED. They are going full spectrum for maximum yield. I want to stimulate carotenoids for donating to the rest of the photosystem, hence my love for cyan. So it makes me wonder if they are a better driver for the LED market. I know we are so niche.

 

[oreo54]

Rapid LED had a good multi channel years back with Borealis array. It had 13 lime LED's. I had reached out last year but they are not able to make them anymore. Good array.

Interesting board.
Z's are ti----ney.

Borealis Luxeon Z Array (37 LED) - Rapid LED

web.archive.org

Had to find a picture .

My 20 green doesn't seem so crazy now..

 

[areefer01]

Interesting board.
Z's are ti----ney.

Borealis Luxeon Z Array (37 LED) - Rapid LED

web.archive.org

My 20 green doesn't seem so crazy now..

It was interesting for sure but not popular according to them. I like the pair I had but sadly I didn't build them properly so they didn't last.

 

[oreo54]

It was interesting for sure but not popular according to them. I like the pair I had but sadly I didn't build them properly so they didn't last.

Yea.. that density and drive current is a bit problematic..
My 15W on pin heatsinks all @700mA is about max for me..

So far over a year and 1/2.. but did lose a cyan. Haven't found out why..
Cyan, PCAmber, Lime, Royal blue, and 3 deep red.
Freshwater of course but can push it to say 12000k.. Well pure rb as well but only like 2 watts each..

My 3 pucks probably could light a 5gal nano reef..

Reflowed the boards using a hot air fryer.. was an experience for sure..