New Trident?

[SpyC]

If you need your users to write code to do a task in 2024 you've messed up bad. Hot take I know.

I like adding a lot of redundancy in case something fails. Are you able to run two high/low water sensors for an ato pump on the hydros? I currently have the two for my atk, then another lower sensor that I use to trigger the ato again and if it stays above water for 5 minutes it also shuts off the return pump, skimmer, uv, uv pump, and triggers alerts. I also have a 2nd high sensir that also tells the ato pump to shut off along with the skimmer so the skimmer does not overflow. I don't consider this conplex and enjoy the customization it allows. Does the hydros allow the same or better setup?

 

[SpyC]

haha I don't blame you. BUT the Maven is a controller and a tester in one. All you need is some wifi power strips and you have a full blown controller.

And hope the wifi doesn't drop. I'd sooner get the wired option.

 

[braaap]

And hope the wifi doesn't drop. I'd sooner get the wired option.

People don't have many issues with the wifi on them from what I have heard. But maybe so. I was mainly mentioning them because the low cost. I think the XP8 is the best overall option.

 

[apb03]

I like adding a lot of redundancy in case something fails. Are you able to run two high/low water sensors for an ato pump on the hydros? I currently have the two for my atk, then another lower sensor that I use to trigger the ato again and if it stays above water for 5 minutes it also shuts off the return pump, skimmer, uv, uv pump, and triggers alerts. I also have a 2nd high sensir that also tells the ato pump to shut off along with the skimmer so the skimmer does not overflow. I don't consider this conplex and enjoy the customization it allows. Does the hydros allow the same or better setup?

I don't see why you can't do that; I do something similar. I have a Tunze Osmolator, so I don't have all of that, but I have a high-sump sensor that turns the system off the same way you do.

So, for me, when the high sump is triggered, it turns off my return, which the skimmer, UV, ATO, etc., are set with a dependency on, so they all auto shut off when the return is off. I have a battery backup, so I also have the Hydros trigger a 12v switch hooked up to an 87a relay that cuts off the battery. Otherwise, my pumps stay in battery mode.

Each output can set a min/max on/off time, etc., which is pretty easy to set up.

In Hydros, everything is implicit; in Apex, you explicitly program decisions. So, you just set your outputs accordingly in Hydros. Both are functionally equivalent, but you approach problems differently.

 

[GARRIGA]

Was sitting I believe next to the owner of Trident at RAP during Hydros unveiling of their tester. At least I’m pretty sure it was him. If I’m right. Was he there to see how the new products compared or if now he must compete.

 

[ca1ore]

If you need your users to write code to do a task in 2024 you've messed up bad. Hot take I know.

I imagine that is the view of the majority. Not mine, though, as I always click through the wizards and write the code myself. Coding lite of course (must be if I can do it). That way I can get exactly what I want, the first time.

 

[apb03]

I imagine that is the view of the majority. Not mine, though, as I always click through the wizards and write the code myself. Coding lite of course (must be if I can do it). That way I can get exactly what I want, the first time.

Not here it isnt. The majority here prefer things to be as they were. Honestly, the assumption that you cannot do what you want to do without if then statements is simply inaccurate.

That said everyone has their own preference and it's great we have both. Just be careful saying one system can't do something when it's not true. It's just different, and that's ok.

 

[Connor At CoralVue]

Just be careful saying one system can't do something when it's not true. It's just different, and that's ok.

THIS EXACTLY!

HYDROS is specifically designed with a drop-down menu interface to enhance ease of use for our end users. We've observed that newcomers to the aquarium automation market can set up our controller much more quickly than those who have previously used a competitor's controller.

Our system's design mimics that of a smartphone, which indeed includes numerous drop-down menus for intuitive navigation.

For instance, we offer presets for return pumps, skimmers, lights, and all the basic equipment. However, we understand that these presets might not meet everyone's needs. That's why we provide GENERIC Outputs. With these, users can configure outputs based on up to 9 inputs, such as water levels and leak detections, using AND/OR logic statements, all through user-friendly drop-down menus.

 

[theatrus]

I'm going to chime in here, against my better judgement

There is nothing wrong with "why not both" - provide an escape hatch for the power users, but make the simple things simple, and obvious, and one click.

The Apex "language" is a bit esoteric - you can program interesting trees of behavior, but you're creating a cascade state machine with virtual outlets. But those aren't unlimited. The "neat" part is you can see the state of the logic tree by simply glancing at the dashboard (except for defer statements, or the like). However, you need to organize that view yourself, since nothing will draw the relationship graph for you.

The problem with the Apex is the user interface and paradigm was last refreshed by someone that had heard of PLC programming once over the telephone and really didn't know how to approach the problem of common interactions, so the "nice" parts are buried under a weird task UI which is behind a weird icon button which features often multiple possibly conflicting options on how to accomplish a task. Its somewhat the worst of both worlds - cascade programming like a bad form of relay ladder programming with a bad attempt at glossing over the ugly parts.

Contrast that with a visual programming system like Node Red which can do a lot of different actions cleanly. Easy to see data flow. More general programming support. Its a big lift for the "I just want my controller to turn on and off a heater" crowd, and it shouldn't be the _default_ interface.

I've never tried to drive a Hydros so I have no idea what it looks like.

 

[apb03]

I'm going to chime in here, against my better judgement

There is nothing wrong with "why not both" - provide an escape hatch for the power users, but make the simple things simple, and obvious, and one click.

The Apex "language" is a bit esoteric - you can program interesting trees of behavior, but you're creating a cascade state machine with virtual outlets. But those aren't unlimited. The "neat" part is you can see the state of the logic tree by simply glancing at the dashboard (except for defer statements, or the like). However, you need to organize that view yourself, since nothing will draw the relationship graph for you.

The problem with the Apex is the user interface and paradigm was last refreshed by someone that had heard of PLC programming once over the telephone and really didn't know how to approach the problem of common interactions, so the "nice" parts are buried under a weird task UI which is behind a weird icon button which features often multiple possibly conflicting options on how to accomplish a task. Its somewhat the worst of both worlds - cascade programming like a bad form of relay ladder programming with a bad attempt at glossing over the ugly parts.

Contrast that with a visual programming system like Node Red which can do a lot of different actions cleanly. Easy to see data flow. More general programming support. Its a big lift for the "I just want my controller to turn on and off a heater" crowd, and it shouldn't be the _default_ interface.

I've never tried to drive a Hydros so I have no idea what it looks like.

Thanks for this post. I enjoyed your take on how tasks are implemented on the Apex. I came to a similar conclusion when evaluating the Apex. I didn't have any pre-existing bias or sunk cost, so I did look at both platforms objectively.

Ultimately, I went with Hydros because the task system in the Apex, while appealing to the tech nerd in me, felt like a bit of a dead end.

Hydros isn't perfect, however. While the implementation is superior and makes the most elaborate tasks trivial to set up in minutes, it does not have a visual guide for the user when creating these automations.

For example, let's say you want to set up something simple like a UV, Return pump, Skimmer, and a water level sensor.

You want the UV and skimmer to be off when the return is off, but you also want the skimmer to delay turning on for 5 minutes so that it doesn't flood.

If you think of those 3 devices as dominos and your finger as the sensor, Hydros gives you templates for each device where you set dependencies, min/off times, etc. So when you push the first domino of a return pump with the two behind it (UV and Skimmer), they turn off automatically because they depend on the Return Pump.

This works great, except I can't see these interaction maps visually like you can by looking at the code in the Apex because the automation/orchestration is set explicitly instead of implicitly. You sort of have to visualize it in your head, which isn't a huge deal, but I can see why Apex users would hate it and perceive it as inferior.

 

[areefer01]

This works great, except I can't see these interaction maps visually like you can by looking at the code in the Apex because the automation/orchestration is set explicitly instead of implicitly. You sort of have to visualize it in your head, which isn't a huge deal, but I can see why Apex users would hate it and perceive it as inferior.

It is just a different way of doing things. The Apex uses a wizard to get the job done. If you want to expand upon it then change the view and write the code. Both platforms have one thing in common and that is education. The more you use it the better you become. Comfortable.

My main system is the Apex. I implemented the Hydros Wave Engine LE for a bit. It took a bit to get used to the UI and some things didn't make sense to me. Guess what, it was a user error and lack of education or understanding of how it worked. Once I got past that, well, Bob was my Uncle and it was great.

I have to say that I really don't understand some of the posts we as hobbyist make in threads like this. There is no better or best. It is implementation differences and choice.

Note: this isn't directed at you or anyone but rather an observation. We seem to be fixated on what best is rather than how we can coexist.

Hope your day is well.

 

[nycfreshreef]

Any word on when this new trident NP tester will actually be released ? I was about to buy the new reef factory one today that has cartridges to test N & P but I was reading the details and it said “only 50 ml per test” or something on those lines …. What ? That’s a large amount lol

 

[braaap]

Any word on when this new trident NP tester will actually be released ? I was about to buy the new reef factory one today that has cartridges to test N & P but I was reading the details and it said “only 50 ml per test” or something on those lines …. What ? That’s a large amount lol

They said in May. I’ve been checking multiple times a day. I’ll be ordering the second I can. I’m not waiting on Maven.

 

[areefer01]

Any word on when this new trident NP tester will actually be released ? I was about to buy the new reef factory one today that has cartridges to test N & P but I was reading the details and it said “only 50 ml per test” or something on those lines …. What ? That’s a large amount lol

I believe the 50 ml is in relationship to the water sample per measurement. Number of tests may be different between the reagents used or packs in their case and will have an estimated numbers of test per. Or should anyway.

All of the automated solutions will have similar values upon release. How much water sample per test, estimated number of tests, etc. The actual results will vary depending on the hobbyist water chemistry but the number of tests per reagent set are close.

 

[Dragen Fiend]

I imagine that is the view of the majority. Not mine, though, as I always click through the wizards and write the code myself. Coding lite of course (must be if I can do it). That way I can get exactly what I want, the first time.

Hence 2024 there should be a user friendly experience at the core of the app. Then "advanced mode" for the tech inclined users. When I see this. It tells me the app developers know what they are doing.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Hence 2024 there should be a user friendly experience at the core of the app. Then "advanced mode" for the tech inclined users. When I see this. It tells me the app developers know what they are doing.

That's exactly the lay out of apex fusion. You can choose to have it write the code for you or you can learn the language and write it yourself.

 

[buruskeee]

I’ve been hearing murmurs that the Trident NP could cost anywhere from $1000-$1200. If that’s the case it’s completely DOA aside from a very select few who will buy regardless. That would make the already bad deal of the $1200 Maven look like a bargain.

$600 I can justify (relative to existing hardware). If not then it will probably be Reef Factory to accompany the OG Trident (OG Trident feels like a bargain at this point seeing what newer things are releasing at).

Hope it does release at around $600.

 

[ca1ore]

I’d be surprised if it were that high, though as the appeal is more limited than trident1.0, I can see it carrying a modest premium. My guess all along has been $750

 

[areefer01]

I’ve been hearing murmurs that the Trident NP could cost anywhere from $1000-$1200. If that’s the case it’s completely DOA aside from a very select few who will buy regardless. That would make the already bad deal of the $1200 Maven look like a bargain.

You are mixing up Maven with the Trident. Neither manufacture has released pricing. I would find it odd that the Trident NP is higher priced than the current one. Don't assume or spread murmurs as you put it.

To be fair maybe someone said the Maven price is X and tests Alk, Ca, Mg, Phosphates, and Nitrates (5 things) then did some fuzzy math combining Trident today with Trident NP tomorrow which would be T + TNP = Y. Then compared the two.

The problem with that is that the Trident is existing and Trident with NP is optional / stand alone. Buy either or both. Maven has no option and is all. That isn't a bad thing or a dig just saying maybe that is what you are thinking of.

TL ; DR - Trident NP is not 1200....

 

[buruskeee]

You are mixing up Maven with the Trident. Neither manufacture has released pricing. I would find it odd that the Trident NP is higher priced than the current one. Don't assume or spread murmurs as you put it.

TL ; DR - Trident NP is not 1200....

No I’m not mixing it up with Maven. I’ve talked with people in direct contact and have relationships with both manufacturers. The Trident is speculation but from conversation (that was had with Neptune/Ecotech but they won’t be specific about), the notion is that it’s going to be pretty expensive because of how complicated testing for Nitrate/Phosphate is with reagents and shelf life etc.

I’m just passing along what I’ve heard that is typically trusted.

I’m definitely hoping it will be the same cost or less than the original, but don’t be surprised if it comes out with a high price tag.