problems with AFR, switching question

[Cichlid Dad]

AFR is designed with an alk to calcium ratio identical to kalkwasser, which adds a tiny bit more calcium than alk. You will not detect it day to day, but long term, maintaining calcium will typically allow alk to decline, and maintaining alk (my recommendation) will allow a very slow calcium rise. Water changes are often enough to keep calcium fine (it did for me with kalkwasser) but if you use a high calcium much to begin with it will trend up.

It is fine to use a little alk aside from AFR to stabilize things, if water changes alone do not keep it where you want.

Fwiw, calcium is fine at any values between 400 and 550 ppm.

I haven’t looked into the amount of magnesium in AFR or how to use RMM with it, but it should not be hard to implement.

Thank you very much, that cleared it up for me and I'm sure for others.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

AFR is designed with an alk to calcium ratio identical to kalkwasser, which adds a tiny bit more calcium than alk. You will not detect it day to day, but long term, maintaining calcium will typically allow alk to decline, and maintaining alk (my recommendation) will allow a very slow calcium rise. Water changes are often enough to keep calcium fine (it did for me with kalkwasser) but if you use a high calcium much to begin with it will trend up.

It is fine to use a little alk aside from AFR to stabilize things, if water changes alone do not keep it where you want.

Fwiw, calcium is fine at any values between 400 and 550 ppm.

I haven’t looked into the amount of magnesium in AFR or how to use RMM with it, but it should not be hard to implement.

In my system with AFR mag and cal remain stable without any adjustments needed. Just alk falls, I do use reef crystals so yes higher calcium to start, so I'm going to keep going as I am as it is working well for me. Thank you again.

Steve

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In my system with AFR mag and cal remain stable without any adjustments needed. Just alk falls, I do use reef crystals so yes higher calcium to start, so I'm going to keep going as I am as it is working well for me. Thank you again.

Steve

Sounds good.

 

[PetitReef]

My tank is 300L, so not really a nano, and I have been dosing AFR for supplement for 1,5 year and learned quite a bit.

First I noticed that my calcium was really high in comparaison to my Alkalinity and make the mistake to chase number of Alk more than 8 that put my calcium almost to 500 so i had to reduce.

Something that was so simple and took me way too long to understand is that i didn't took into consideration my baseline, my Salt.

When i started AFR, i also used tropic marin most recommended Salt, Tropic marin pro-reef.
who have a low alkalinity baseline of 7 to 7.3 Alkalinity while having a high calcium of 450.

So before even starting dosing AR my system is already low alkalinity and high Calcium and instead of chasing a specific Alk, i should maintain the one from my salt or change salt.

I decided the later, to find a salt that have the parameters I want for my tank and changed from pro-reef to the Nyos Salt that have the following parameters

• Carbonate hardness/alkalinity: ca. 8.5 dHK
• Magnesium: ca. 1,350 mg/l
• Sulphur: ca. 900 mg/l
• Calcium: ca. 435 mg/l
• Potassium: ca. 400mg/l
• Bromium: ca. 62 mg/l
• Strontium: ca. 8 mg/l
• Boron: ca. 4.5 mg/l

Other option I considered was to switch from pro-reef to classic as classic is high alkalinity and low calcium. so feel like more suited for AFR user who want to keep a higher Alk.

Alkalinity - 9-10 dKH (approx)
Calcium - 380 ppm (approx)
Magnesium - 1260 ppm (approx)


I can then use my AFR dosing to keep those parameters along side my AutoWater change of 1% day.
so to all AFR user, prior to adapt your dosing, check your Salt parameters and use it as your baseline.

I feel like I am stating the obvious but I missed the point for a long time so i share my experience with it

cheers

 

[apb03]

I switched from AFR to ESV, and the swap was relatively straightforward. If you switch, I suggest halving your dosage at the start and monitoring your alk closely for the first week.

I also switched from AFR because I found it unreliable in the long term when maintaining stable parameters. AFR is a fantastic product for a new reef (0-1 year old), but I find the solution doesn't scale well over time.

At some point, stabilizing alk when the coral load is high becomes tedious due to what I believe is the delayed effect of the formate consumption by bacteria.

Also, speaking of bacteria, I got sick of the gloop, slime or whatever you call it. The reservoir holding the AFR eventually develops this, and I suspect it can cause clogging or, at the very least, interfere with dosage amounts.

Ever since I switched to ESV, my parameters have been far more stable, and the lines stay clean. That said, AFR was an amazing and convenient way to dose my tank at the beginning and I still use it for my nano.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My tank is 300L, so not really a nano, and I have been dosing AFR for supplement for 1,5 year and learned quite a bit.

First I noticed that my calcium was really high in comparaison to my Alkalinity and make the mistake to chase number of Alk more than 8 that put my calcium almost to 500 so i had to reduce.

Something that was so simple and took me way too long to understand is that i didn't took into consideration my baseline, my Salt.

When i started AFR, i also used tropic marin most recommended Salt, Tropic marin pro-reef.
who have a low alkalinity baseline of 7 to 7.3 Alkalinity while having a high calcium of 450.

So before even starting dosing AR my system is already low alkalinity and high Calcium and instead of chasing a specific Alk, i should maintain the one from my salt or change salt.

I decided the later, to find a salt that have the parameters I want for my tank and changed from pro-reef to the Nyos Salt that have the following parameters

• Carbonate hardness/alkalinity: ca. 8.5 dHK
• Magnesium: ca. 1,350 mg/l
• Sulphur: ca. 900 mg/l
• Calcium: ca. 435 mg/l
• Potassium: ca. 400mg/l
• Bromium: ca. 62 mg/l
• Strontium: ca. 8 mg/l
• Boron: ca. 4.5 mg/l

Other option I considered was to switch from pro-reef to classic as classic is high alkalinity and low calcium. so feel like more suited for AFR user who want to keep a higher Alk.

Alkalinity - 9-10 dKH (approx)
Calcium - 380 ppm (approx)
Magnesium - 1260 ppm (approx)


I can then use my AFR dosing to keep those parameters along side my AutoWater change of 1% day.
so to all AFR user, prior to adapt your dosing, check your Salt parameters and use it as your baseline.

I feel like I am stating the obvious but I missed the point for a long time so i share my experience with it

cheers

When used kalkwasser (which has the identical tendency to have excess calcium relative to alk as AFR), I used a lower calcium mix (normal IO) for regular water changes and calcium never got too high. As expected, it ran a bit higher than the salt mix.

 

[dr_vinnie_boombatz]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I was looking at the MSDS for both products and am I understanding correctly, that AFR is slightly more hazaradous?

RS has their MSDS online which I really liked since they are being transparent, I had to email TM

TM: Calcium Formate, 10-15%, H318 (causes serious eye damage)
RS Foundation A [Calc]: Calcium chloride, 20-25%, H319 (eye irritation) + Strontium chloride, 1%, H318, H335, H315
RS Foundation B [Alk]: Sodium carbonate, 10-25%, H319 (eye irritation) + Potassium carbonate, 1-5%, H302, H315, H319, H335

RS Blue Salt having Calcium chloride, 1-5%

Thank you!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I was looking at the MSDS for both products and am I understanding correctly, that AFR is slightly more hazaradous?

RS has their MSDS online which I really liked since they are being transparent, I had to email TM

TM: Calcium Formate, 10-15%, H318 (causes serious eye damage)
RS Foundation A [Calc]: Calcium chloride, 20-25%, H319 (eye irritation) + Strontium chloride, 1%, H318, H335, H315
RS Foundation B [Alk]: Sodium carbonate, 10-25%, H319 (eye irritation) + Potassium carbonate, 1-5%, H302, H315, H319, H335

RS Blue Salt having Calcium chloride, 1-5%

Thank you!

I’ve not compared hazards of various products, but I do not think AFR is more hazardous to a user than a two part.

 

[AdrainB]

But the ALK isn't rising with big increases in AFR dose. I don't believe my CA measurement is wrong.

Would a UV somehow impact AFR?

So I run AFR on a 60 gallon reef tank that has a 55 watt UV sterilizer plumbed into the return. I suffer a similar problem. Ca of about 450 and Kh of 7.5. If I switch my UV off the Kh jumps to 8.5 in a week. To counter this I just dose a very small amount of red sea Kh on a dose, 3 ml is all I need to maintain a stable kh of 8.5.

 

[dr_vinnie_boombatz]

I’ve not compared hazards of various products, but I do not think AFR is more hazardous to a user than a two part.

Thanks, my take away from MSDS was AFR can cause serious eye damage whereas RS Foundation A & B can cause eye irritation. For me personally that's a big difference

 

[dr_vinnie_boombatz]

So I run AFR on a 60 gallon reef tank that has a 55 watt UV sterilizer plumbed into the return. I suffer a similar problem. Ca of about 450 and Kh of 7.5. If I switch my UV off the Kh jumps to 8.5 in a week. To counter this I just dose a very small amount of red sea Kh on a dose, 3 ml is all I need to maintain a stable kh of 8.5.

Thanks, I suspect this was the cause for me
Added new 10w UV and started noticing this

I've since switched to RS Foundation A and B and its great, nice to be able to measure right after dosing

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, my take away from MSDS was AFR can cause serious eye damage whereas RS Foundation A & B can cause eye irritation. For me personally that's a big difference

I don’t believe that is a distinction that would be made if the same person were writing an msds to the same regulations.

 

[steveschuerger]

I’ve never used AFR, just ESV 2 part. Until I won a Red Sea set up from Top Shelf earlier this year. I am now a bonafide Red Sea adherent, including their magnesium and AB+.

 

[areefer01]

Thanks, my take away from MSDS was AFR can cause serious eye damage whereas RS Foundation A & B can cause eye irritation. For me personally that's a big difference

Unless you are really careless the chance of anything getting into your eyes are slim to none. If there is a concern wear safety / protective glasses. I've been using the product for over 2 years now and have never encountered any issues. Then again I'm not using it for a face wash.

How do you handle cleaning supplies or things in the garage outside child and animal proof & safety? Not knocking a concern just wondering.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Thanks, my take away from MSDS was AFR can cause serious eye damage whereas RS Foundation A & B can cause eye irritation. For me personally that's a big difference

I consider many other household products to be more likely to be dangerous if not stored appropriately.

Household Bleach, Swimming Pool Chlorine/Acids, etc.

I keep all of my fish tank chemicals clearly labelled and in safe places.
Do not keep any mixed solutions in old Soda bottles etc.

 

[dr_vinnie_boombatz]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley

I was hoping to get more of your guidance. I've been dosing RS Foundation part A and B and it's going great! Have it locked down to 8 dkH and 430ppm calcium.

For magnesium I was Initially going to rely on my 15% weekly water changes but RS seems to recommend the dosing amounts alongside a weekly 10% water change... RS recommends:

1ml dKH
.333ml calcium
.111ml magnesium

I'm using this ratio for part A and B currently, and want to add part D as well, which is based on calcium intake (1mL for every 10mL part A calcium).

Do you recommend relying on salt mix or should I add the dosing amount for magnesium and the trace elements, and see how it plays out on my next ICP? Last two ICPs were low on iodine. ICP showed magnesium at 1331.

Thank you again!

 

[Spare time]

Do you use distilled water with the hanna checker? You are supposed to use it rather than rodi.

 

[dr_vinnie_boombatz]

Do you use distilled water with the hanna checker? You are supposed to use it rather than rodi.

I do, I use the Hanna deionized water. It works awesome, very close to ICP results.

Most recent Hanna showed 443 and ICP showed 433.

Deionized Water

Perfect for the Hanna Calcium Checker! Ultra-Pure deionized water that keeps your titration tests accurate and repeatable. The biggest complaint about the Hanna Calcium Checker is when the sample is diluted, if the fresh water source is not pure, it can cause irregular readings and using Hanna's...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley

I was hoping to get more of your guidance. I've been dosing RS Foundation part A and B and it's going great! Have it locked down to 8 dkH and 430ppm calcium.

For magnesium I was Initially going to rely on my 15% weekly water changes but RS seems to recommend the dosing amounts alongside a weekly 10% water change... RS recommends:

1ml dKH
.333ml calcium
.111ml magnesium

I'm using this ratio for part A and B currently, and want to add part D as well, which is based on calcium intake (1mL for every 10mL part A calcium).

Do you recommend relying on salt mix or should I add the dosing amount for magnesium and the trace elements, and see how it plays out on my next ICP? Last two ICPs were low on iodine. ICP showed magnesium at 1331.

Thank you again!

I would dose their recommended amount.

 

[dr_vinnie_boombatz]

To come full circle, after dosing 7 part for ~2 months with a 2 head doser I am switching back to AFR with the new tank upgrade. Going to try AFR to maintain calcium, magnesium, and trace and will dose alkalinity when needed. Will use a mix of ICP and Hanna for dosing amount.