A lot of known people dont QUARANTINE!!!

[Sean_B]

All anyone has to do to test the matured reef idea is simply buy fifty pounds of your lfs’s best display rock. Offer them enough, they’ll sell it, cart it home to a tank of water, you now have a reef as old as that lfs display was


relocating to home did not reset a single thing, the reef tank isn’t it’s glass, it’s the rock and that which rock supports directly and indirectly

buy a mix of lfs fish and add them to a live rock skip cycle…80% are dead in 8 months, source for claims all recent pages of the fish disease forum.
this debate thread started in may

and in nov things are worse, not better, the only two schools of thought in play are:

1. I do want to be part of the largest waste of fish practice in this hobby, by promoting any form of non qt non fallow setup

2. I can read the fish forum, I’m aware the problem is worse even in live rock skip cycle setups, I’ll advocate qt and fallow because whatever way I may have chosen doesn’t constitute how the public would turn out. Viva quarantine. They say viva quarantine specifically



cycling doesn’t kill the most fish



ground issues and voltage doesn’t kill the most fish in a home



what kills the most fish by buckets daily in the home is non prep disease loss, to the tune of 90% of losses is my projection

we are too spoiled, to have access to this many fish to kill and debate about


I wish they all cost $700 apiece then our standards of care would rise nicely.

within the disease forum, this method doesn't seem to be implemented very often?

 

[MnFish1]

All anyone has to do to test the matured reef idea is simply buy fifty pounds of your lfs’s best display rock. Offer them enough, they’ll sell it, cart it home to a tank of water, you now have a reef as old as that lfs display was


relocating to home did not reset a single thing, the reef tank isn’t it’s glass, it’s the rock and that which rock supports directly and indirectly

buy a mix of lfs fish and add them to a live rock skip cycle…80% are dead in 8 months, source for claims all recent pages of the fish disease forum.
this debate thread started in may

and in nov things are worse, not better, the only two schools of thought in play are:

1. I do want to be part of the largest waste of fish practice in this hobby, by promoting any form of non qt non fallow setup

2. I can read the fish forum, I’m aware the problem is worse even in live rock skip cycle setups, I’ll advocate qt and fallow because whatever way I may have chosen doesn’t constitute how the public would turn out. Viva quarantine. They say viva quarantine specifically



cycling doesn’t kill the most fish



ground issues and voltage doesn’t kill the most fish in a home



what kills the most fish by buckets daily in the home is non prep disease loss, to the tune of 90% of losses is my projection

we are too spoiled, to have access to this many fish to kill and debate about


I wish they all cost $700 apiece then our standards of care would rise nicely.

Once again - this makes no sense

 

[brandon429]

Fully agreed Sean. What they use is fallow and quarantine


regardless of the rocks history

the offer was for those saying a matured reef will prevent the need for preps the fish disease forum uses, they can make test tanks using aged rock for quick study on patterns of emergence. I believe on the scale of totally un prepped tanks the matured rock ones will have a better chance than all bare white rock starts, but not enough to forego the prep process.

 

[Sean_B]

Why wouldn't anyone quarantine? While the downside of not quarantining is obvious, if there is a downside to QT, I don't see it.

stress has been discussed even within this very thread? also suggested, seemingly across the board is caution in stripping the fish's natural immunities without properly reintroducing them back?

 

[brandon429]

easy fix for stress: don’t create scary quarantines be creative and respond to the need, don’t forego quarantine due to lack of creativity


Tamberav, on relay from Paul B, described how to set up a calming quarantine setup. After setting up a calming quarantine the fish won’t be stressed, and we can continue studying the greatest impact to fish known in reefing-disease.


since may, the reason a new forum titled “handling fish disease with no fallow or qt” has not arose is because it doesn’t work.

 

[jmichaelh7]

The downside is doing your diligence (Water changes, buying equipment salt, thermometers, filters etc , stress that comes with the fact that your running potential toxic meds and need accurate testing, $$$) Nobody wants to do it. But when your fish die because they are covered with white spots or film you’ll see the emergency threads show up.

 

[Dom]

stress has been discussed even within this very thread? also suggested, seemingly across the board is caution in stripping the fish's natural immunities without properly reintroducing them back?

I submit that it is more stressful to go right into the display as the new fish has to:

1. Contend with the stress of a new environment (just like it would in QT).
2. Contend with the stress of competing for food in this new environment (whereas in a QT, they have no other fish to compete with).
3. They have to deal with the territorial aggression by established fish in the display tank.

Nope... its less stressful to put the fish in QT. What else ya got?

 

[Sean_B]

1. Contend with the stress of competing for food in this new environment (whereas in a QT, they have no other fish to compete with).
2. They have to deal with the territorial aggression by established fish in the display tank.

Nope... its less stressful to put the fish in QT. What else ya got?

I guess not much, I'm not a fish

If you are planning on keeping your fish in QT forever and solo, then I can agree completely that your fish will never be stressed due to competing for food or tankmate aggression.

my implication above was a DT somewhere down the road

 

[MnFish1]

easy fix for stress: don’t create scary quarantines be creative and respond to the need, don’t forego quarantine due to lack of creativity


Tamberav, on relay from Paul B, described how to set up a calming quarantine setup. After setting up a calming quarantine the fish won’t be stressed, and we can continue studying the greatest impact to fish known in reefing-disease.


since may, the reason a new forum titled “handling fish disease with no fallow or qt” has not arose is because it doesn’t work.

There is no evidence that PVC pipes are more or less stressful for fish than rocks - with all due respect to @Tamberev

 

[Lyss]

Not refuting the need for QT. But on the issue of stress, when I began adding fish after my DT was cycled, I did one fish first, then two more a week later. That first fish was all by itself for a week w/no one to pick on it or compete with for food, and it was very obviously scared s-less. It wouldn't eat, and kept peering over the rocks trying to get a sense for where it was w/o leaving it's adopted "safe" spot. The next week when two more fish joined it, it came out of its shell and started eating, exploring the tank, etc. My feeling after seeing that was some fish need companionship to not feel stressed.

 

[MnFish1]

Not refuting the need for QT. But on the issue of stress, when I began adding fish after my DT was cycled, I did one fish first, then two more a week later. That first fish was all by itself for a week w/no one to pick on it or compete with for food, and it was very obviously scared s-less. It wouldn't eat, and kept peering over the rocks trying to get a sense for where it was w/o leaving it's adopted "safe" spot. The next week when two more fish joined it, it came out of its shell and started eating, exploring the tank, etc. My feeling after seeing that was some fish need companionship to not feel stressed.

Anyone that wants to pretend that - taking a fish from the ocean - transporting it - and putting it into any kind of tank - with rock - or whatever - is much different - I'm not sure I get it

 

[Lyss]

I will say that QT is another barrier to the hobby, and it's unfortunate. I did not QT my FW puffers and I got extremely lucky, but even w/FW fish you really should. Both LFS I use here run praziquantel, and the puffers I got had been in the store for a few months before I picked some up, so I'm sure that contributed to my luck there. You will always be rolling the dice when you do that.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

"Hello guys I am so so so confused. Should i quarantine or not?" ---- per OP

I have been trying to wrap my head around this thought, reading and gathering as much information from life long hobbyist and marine biologist alike. While the idea runs deep with Subjective Reasoning, two Objective Rationales stand out to me.

Pro QT; There are proven medications for managing parasites and infections.
No QT; Fish deal with parasites and infections equally successful, if not more so, by themselves in a natural setting.

Two primary Subjective thoughts

Pro QT; Quarantining all your tanks inhabitants, and starting out with a "sterile" tank will ensure a long lasting healthy system.
No QT; Cycling a tank is relatively basic, and can be successful when established guidelines are followed.

My personal "opinions" on the above Subjective thoughts are, it is 100% impossible to sustain a parasitic free and an infection free tank. Never going to happen. Also, "cycling" a tank for 2 months until Nitrate levels of 0-40 PPM are reached, or even 6 months until Coralline Algae grows, will never produce a tank even remotely close to a natural setting.

While I realize there are no certainties with either techniques, I like the approach often cited "Nothing Good Happens Fast in a Reef Tank". I have successfully had Freshwater Tanks in the past, but don't consider much of the experiences will be very helpful in keeping a Reef Tank. My plans are to have a small, limited and utilitarian system for at least 12 months before going with full BioLoad.

Regardless of which side you lean towards, I don't think anyone could argue the importance and benefits of a "Stress Free Tank"!

Just one thought related to ectoparasites in wild fish. I once tried to calculate the biomass of animal life in the ocean and it worked out to be roughly equal to a 3” clownfish in 20,000 gallons of water. That means that the propagule pressure, the ability to find a host, is minuscule in the open ocean as compared to an aquarium.
Jay

 

[Miami Reef]

Just one thought related to ectoparasites in wild fish. I once tried to calculate the biomass of animal life in the ocean and it worked out to be roughly equal to a 3” clownfish in 20,000 gallons of water. That means that the propagule pressure, the ability to find a host, is minuscule in the open ocean as compared to an aquarium.
Jay

But fish sleep near bottom of substrate at night…the same time ich tomonts hatch.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

But fish sleep near bottom of substrate at night…the same time ich tomonts hatch.

Sure - this is just a general observation. I used some biomass figures I found online divided by an estimate of the volume of the oceans….
Jay

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Sure - this is just a general observation. I used some biomass figures I found online divided by an estimate of the volume of the oceans….
Jay

He blinded me with science! LOL.

 

[Sean_B]

Just one thought related to ectoparasites in wild fish. I once tried to calculate the biomass of animal life in the ocean and it worked out to be roughly equal to a 3” clownfish in 20,000 gallons of water. That means that the propagule pressure, the ability to find a host, is minuscule in the open ocean as compared to an aquarium.
Jay

I direct this question to you because I respect your insight and experience on these matters, thank you for your time!

Volume and density parallels aside, would you say parasites and bacterial infections are primarily managed by various microbiomes in the wild?

If yes, what is the best way an Aquarist can work towards mimicking that scenario?

Is it possible for a wild fish to be void of any parasites or infections?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I direct this question to you because I respect your insight and experience on these matters, thank you for your time!

Volume and density parallels aside, would you say parasites and bacterial infections are primarily managed by various microbiomes in the wild?

If yes, what is the best way an Aquarist can work towards mimicking that scenario?

Is it possible for a wild fish to be void of any parasites or infections?

I don’t have data on this, but I feel very strongly that a robust microbiome in aquariums helps limit disease issues, so it should be an even greater affect in nature, with presumably even higher biodiversity.
For me - microbiomes develop over time, so new aquariums are deficient in that regard. I also wonder if “stocking” a microbiome from wild stock also helps with diversity?
I can’t answer your last question because infections can be so many different organisms - viral, bacterial, metazoan. I do think that wild fish are typically free of acute infections. The danger point is when wild fish are imported and mixed in wholesaler tanks - a great melting pot of disease.
Jay

 

[Tamberav]

There is no evidence that PVC pipes are more or less stressful for fish than rocks - with all due respect to @Tamberev

From my personal experience which is just that.. personal experience but no science.... fish prefer natural looking hides and sand and will choose them over PVC if both are in a QT tank. Sometimes they rather choose a sponge filter or heater over PVC.

You can try this for yourself and see what you think. Take a large QT and put PVC pipe at one end and rock and plants on the other end and see what the fish do. Maybe not clownfish though... they think powerheads are hosts. lol

Honestly this would be a good experiment to document with a variety of fish.

 

[Paul B]

Sure - this is just a general observation. I used some biomass figures I found online divided by an estimate of the volume of the oceans….
Jay

Jay, Last week I collected about 100 gallons of seawater so you need to adjust your calculations as to how much volume of water is in the sea.

Tamberav, you are totally, 110% correct and one main reason so many fish in quarantine die.

It's not the PVC itself, it is the fact that people take new, white PVC from Home Depot and throw it in their tank. Fish hate anything new and white. Removing that sticky bar code doesn't help.

If that PVC elbow, Ford Carburetor, Lady GaGa's left shoe or Columbus underwear is older and has some growth on it, fish will love it and think it is from their old neighborhood.

The Paulb mandarin feeders I designed don't work at all when they are new. Fish are afraid of them as they are afraid of anything new and clean. After they grow some algae, the fish think it's their new home.

They are also afraid of new, dead, white rock that many people use to start a tank and the owner is confused why their fish don't eat and are covered in parasites.

WE are so all over the place on these forums as to why fish are sick so often and it is very simple. But very few want to comprehend and don't take the fishes "feelings" into consideration.

We just see parasites. Fish don't care about parasites because there are no fish in the sea that don't harbor parasites. Not even one. OK maybe one in Bayonne New Jersey.

The way to a healthy fish is through it's mind.

Most of the rest of 87% of this thread, I disagree with.

Ref:
My book
Me
The lady on the corner with 16 cats.