Alkalinity stability? pH stability? Are they even different?

[jhuntstl]

Why are you so worried about the ph, is everything else in check? If so don't worry about ph, stop feeding into the ph hype

That statement has little value in a thread like this. You should probably elaborate on why one should not worry about pH.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

That statement has little value in a thread like this. You should probably elaborate on why one should not worry about pH.

You see this was edited and you still went for it anyway, ill elaborate a measurement someone in this position measured is probably not accurate. checking ph ranging from 8.06-8.02 is pretty difficult, then to worry about that kind of swing is just not necessary so that's why I say don't worry about ph that critically, unless your testing that way too.
I have two ph probes calibrated by me the same way, running off my hydros and they differ more than that range, now how can you be critical to .04 swing if your testing is questionable.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Given a choice between a ph level that stays super stable at 8.02-8.06 during the day or, one that ranges from 8.1-8.4 during the day, which option would be the most beneficial for corals. I realize staility is key. But how key is it compared to achieving better ph levels but much more volatile?

I don’t think there is an clear answer to that, Nor even a simple definition of what beneficial means, but I think many hard corals will grow faster at the higher pH if there are sufficient other nutrients available.

 

[las]

You see this was edited and you still went for it anyway, ill elaborate a measurement someone in this position measured is probably not accurate. checking ph ranging from 8.06-8.02 is pretty difficult, then to worry about that kind of swing is just not necessary so that's why I say don't worry about ph that critically, unless your testing that way too.
I have two ph probes calibrated by me the same way, running off my hydros and they differ more than that range, now how can you be critical to .04 swing if your testing is questionable.

Regardless of the small range of the ph swing and the accuracy of the test, the point was a stable ph vs a higher ph that moves around. At no point was I asking you if I should “stop the ph hype” I can make my own decisions on what I want to do. Was looking for some opinions by people who know more than me.

 

[las]

I don’t think there is an clear answer to that, Nor even a simple definition of what beneficial means, but I think many hard corals will grow faster at the higher pH if there are sufficient other nutrients available.

Thank you for the response

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Regardless of the small range of the ph swing and the accuracy of the test, the point was a stable ph vs a higher ph that moves around. At no point was I asking you if I should “stop the ph hype” I can make my own decisions on what I want to do. Was looking for some opinions by people who know more than me.

Also, again, it was edited well before he quoted it. So everything after is un debatable

 

[las]

Also, again, it was edited well before he quoted it. So everything after is un debatable

You like to tell people what to do i see

 

[las]

So just to get back on point here, I was dosing kalk and ph was ranging between 8.1-8.4. The sea fans were acting upset. So I wanted to try stability and ph has been super stable between 8.02-8.06 and they are back to normal. So, I’m wondering if higher ph is only good if you can also keep it stable.

 

[Biologic]

I don’t think there is an clear answer to that, Nor even a simple definition of what beneficial means, but I think many hard corals will grow faster at the higher pH if there are sufficient other nutrients available.

Bio-availability of certain elements at a given pH range would be important, right? In addition to how proteins fold in a certain pH would be important. What about the ability for the cell membrane on the outer most epithelium of the coral doesn’t have to expend energy to maintain its cell’s pH. I am sure there are plenty of papers beyond just corals that demonstrate that.

but the whole debate could be just splitting hairs at this point. As long as your system is working well and not to an extreme. Whether it be a calcium reactor, 2 part, 1 part, or kalkwasser, as long as it’s stable and not extreme. Like 7.7 ph or 8.7 pH. Landing in the some where in the middle is fine.

 

[92Miata]

So just to get back on point here, I was dosing kalk and ph was ranging between 8.1-8.4. The sea fans were acting upset. So I wanted to try stability and ph has been super stable between 8.02-8.06 and they are back to normal. So, I’m wondering if higher ph is only good if you can also keep it stable.

You've got multiple variables here. You can't make that assumption.

It could be the stability, or it could be the lower overall pH, or it could be almost anything else. It could be the kalk precipitating out phosphate that bothered them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So just to get back on point here, I was dosing kalk and ph was ranging between 8.1-8.4. The sea fans were acting upset. So I wanted to try stability and ph has been super stable between 8.02-8.06 and they are back to normal. So, I’m wondering if higher ph is only good if you can also keep it stable.

Did the alkalinity change between those scenarios?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bio-availability of certain elements at a given pH range would be important, right? In addition to how proteins fold in a certain pH would be important. What about the ability for the cell membrane on the outer most epithelium of the coral doesn’t have to expend energy to maintain its cell’s pH. I am sure there are plenty of papers beyond just corals that demonstrate that.

but the whole debate could be just splitting hairs at this point. As long as your system is working well and not to an extreme. Whether it be a calcium reactor, 2 part, 1 part, or kalkwasser, as long as it’s stable and not extreme. Like 7.7 ph or 8.7 pH. Landing in the some where in the middle is fine.

It is certainly true that lots of things change as pH changes, and aside from calcification effects, there’s not a lot of reliable info on how pH impacts marine organisms.

 

[las]

Did the alkalinity change between those scenarios?

Alk was 10.2-10.6 with ph at 8.1-8.4 when I was dozing kalk. After going back to no dosing of kalk and daily water changes, ph stable as can be at 8.04 and also stable alk at 9.2.

 

[las]

Just to give more color, in the beginning they loved the new higher ph. But after a couple days they started to act angry. This is just a guess on my part about the fluctuating values irritating them. This tank isn’t big enough to use a doser on. But knowing how they look at a stable ph of 8.0, and knowing how they look with avg ph of 8.3 with a wide fluctuation, I’d like to try a very stable 8.3 ph and see if that’s the best of both worlds

 

[Biologic]

Alk was 10.2-10.6 with ph at 8.1-8.4 when I was dozing kalk. After going back to no dosing of kalk and daily water changes, ph stable as can be at 8.04 and also stable alk at 9.2.

you actually sound like you have a CO2 problem. I know this sounds so cliché, but I had to prove it to myself. Get a CO2 meter. Or a pH probe and do the Randy Holmes Farley CO2 Test™. I am being facetious eight the ™.

take a sample of your tank water. Take a before measurement in your house. Aerate inside your house by your tank for 1 hour. Notate the measurement. Then do the same test outside. Watch your pH rocket up outside.

 

[Ober_Reef]

I'm currently working on stabilizing my alk via a dosing pump and schedule(previously I was dosing by hand once a week spread out over a full day). In working on this aspect of my tank I also purchased a pin point PH monitor. I immediately calibrated it and it showed very different results than my Hanna HI780 PH checker. My Hanna checker has been showing ranges from 8.1-8.4 and on the other hand my PinPoint PH monitor shows a ranges of 7.7 PH starting the day to around 8.1 later in the day. I'm currently dosing 20 mls of two part from 12am to 8am as well as a custom dose to bring my alk within ranges until I figure out exactly how much is needed to keep my alk where I want it constantly each day.

My first question is would dosing throughout the entire day be better for my PH stability ?

Second should I look supplementing some Kalkwasser to keep my PH closer to 8.3?

Finally should I just wait until I get my alk to stabilize and hope this leads to a more stable PH?

The main reason I want to get this under control now is that I live in Michigan and currently the fall weather is wonderful so I have had a lot of help with my PH because we have our windows open during the day and soon enough it will be too cold for that.

Thanks everyone I was actually just about to make a post about this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My first question is would dosing throughout the entire day be better for my PH stability ?

Depends on what you are dosing. The conundrum is that high pH alk supplement dosing at night stabilizes pH best, and alk dosing during the day stabilizes alk best.

Second should I look supplementing some Kalkwasser to keep my PH closer to 8.3?

I don't know that you "should" do it, but hydroxide dosing (limewater/kalkwasser or ultra high pH two part) is a good way to help raise pH.

Finally should I just wait until I get my alk to stabilize and hope this leads to a more stable PH?

Stabilizing alk is not typically a solution to unstable pH. pH is determined by CO2 and alk, and the variation in alk is generally much less than the variation in CO2.

 

[Ober_Reef]

Depends on what you are dosing. The conundrum is that high pH alk supplement dosing at night stabilizes pH best, and alk dosing during the day stabilizes alk best.



I don't know that you "should" do it, but hydroxide dosing (limewater/kalkwasser or ultra high pH two part) is a good way to help raise pH.



Stabilizing alk is not typically a solution to unstable pH. pH is determined by CO2 and alk, and the variation in alk is generally much less than the variation in CO2.

Thanks for this great info Randy! I currently use BRS Two Part, are some other brands better for PH ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for this great info Randy! I currently use BRS Two Part, are some other brands better for PH ?

BRS uses some of my recipes, but not the ultra high pH two part that uses sodium hydroxide for the alk part. No supplement can have a higher pH boost per unit of alk added than one based on hydroxide.

 

[chimbo84]

People always tell me i'm crazy for running my tanks like this, and admittedly, i only run some of them this way, but, i've had more growth with this method than almost anything else. They say don't chase ph?? naw, chase ph, with kalk...why not. PH shutoff which doses kalk or RODI depending. The only real black magic is figuring out what the PH shutoff needs to be to get to a target alk/cal range, but, with appropriate timeouts on my doser, i've made this quite safe.

Oddly enough, i'm wondering if your table might have answered the "black magic" bit some more

and here's the tank in question.

I know this is an old thread at this point but wondering if you still run your tank(s) like this and if so, what your current method is and the programming you use.
I’m currently using an OSC statement to run my DOS for one minute every five minutes followed by an IF statement to OFF if pH is above 8.2. It’s been working great the last couple days but only time will tell.