am I close to being able to add a clown?

[Ballyhoo]

I just got a G2 max 200 series set up with the help of LFS bout five days ago. Everything's OK except the reef mats not working . I've got to get it connected properly, LFS i think connected it wrong. I've got 30 LBS a live rock in there. (Also had a couple other posts that may have been viewed by some of the readers of this thread.) i've been adding a cap full of microbacter, and about half the amount of the recommended dosage of Dr. Tim's ammonia, my LFS told me to do half the amount so it's about I think 80 drops. I am aware there is a opinion of some that if there's live rock, there's no need for any other substrate right now like I've been doing, but then I didn't think the microbacter or ammonia additions would hurt. I'm adding every morning Dr. Tim's so this evening I measured the nitrites they came out to zero which I think I was happy about. But I measured the ammonia. It was towards the bottom of the scale, about 5P/M. so it appears right now the bacterial colonies are not yet cycling the ammonia fully and I guess I'm not yet able to put a clown fish with is that a amount of ammonia could damage their gills. But would I be close? I mean 12 hours after adding Dr. Tim's I have 5/m of ammonia is that getting pretty close to where I can add my first clownish maybe? maybe I don't need to add Dr. T and that ammonia level will go way down. Also, of course I have not measured pH but I'm presuming pH is gonna be within the threshold and I will measure that tomorrow. Also, I got refractometer to measure, but I'm presuming salinity is within range but will confirm this tomorrow . I can also measure to be sure . Have not measured nitrates as I think it may be premature. I still have a lot to learn about the settings for LED, it's a bit complex to learn the settings, scheduling values for the various moon, white and blue, etc. As well as best setting for wave run. But I'm sure if I keep them at a minimal It would probably be OK. I don't think I need the reefmat working yet so I'm probably OK.

also regarding homing invertebrates, little lobster, other crustaceans, shrimp, starfish, non-fish non-coral species, are they more robust and able to tolerate a little bit of ammonia or nitrates? Obviously, if I home them in, they will start to affect and bio waste into the system and also maybe contribute to the system as well and their on ways.
thanks all!

 

[JNalley]

That's a lot of text... I read most of it, and got the gist of what you're saying.

First things first, what you have in your tank is not Live Rock... It's "LifeRock" which is a SKU by caribsea... It's a manmade rock with purple paint that has spored bacteria on it. Live Rock comes to you wet, wrapped in wet news papers usually, and has all of the bacteria alive and thriving.

Secondly, these are the signs you're looking for:

Initial Dose of ammonia.

Ammonia going down and Nitrite going up
Spike in Nitrite with Nitrate going up
Ammonia at 0, Nitrite at 0, and Nitrate at a fairly high level (40ppm+ is not uncommon with this method)

Once that condition is reached, you're good to go, but most reefers prefer to "test" by doing another dose of the Ammonia (2ppm I think) and making sure it's at 0 24 hours later. I don't prescribe to that, if you added ammonia, it's now 0, Nitrite is also 0, and Nitrate is high, it means you have completed the Nitrogen cycle and have all colonies that will nitrify your ammonia.

Something you can do to help it along would be to dose some Distilled White Vinegar (check online for proper dosage for your size tank). This will act as a carbon source for the bacteria allowing them to propagate faster and process the ammonia and nitrite quicker... It will also help the guys the convert Nitrate to Nitrogen start reproducing, so it's a win win win situation.

Usually this process takes about 2 weeks, sometimes 3 but not very often. Just be patient

 

[Ballyhoo]

That's a lot of text... I read most of it, and got the gist of what you're saying.

First things first, what you have in your tank is not Live Rock... It's "LifeRock" which is a SKU by caribsea... It's a manmade rock with purple paint that has spored bacteria on it. Live Rock comes to you wet, wrapped in wet news papers usually, and has all of the bacteria alive and thriving.

Secondly, these are the signs you're looking for:

Initial Dose of ammonia.

Ammonia going down and Nitrite going up
Spike in Nitrite with Nitrate going up
Ammonia at 0, Nitrite at 0, and Nitrate at a fairly high level (40ppm+ is not uncommon with this method)

Once that condition is reached, you're good to go, but most reefers prefer to "test" by doing another dose of the Ammonia (2ppm I think) and making sure it's at 0 24 hours later. I don't prescribe to that, if you added ammonia, it's now 0, Nitrite is also 0, and Nitrate is high, it means you have completed the Nitrogen cycle and have all colonies that will nitrify your ammonia.

Something you can do to help it along would be to dose some Distilled White Vinegar (check online for proper dosage for your size tank). This will act as a carbon source for the bacteria allowing them to propagate faster and process the ammonia and nitrite quicker... It will also help the guys the convert Nitrate to Nitrogen start reproducing, so it's a win win win situation.

Usually this process takes about 2 weeks, sometimes 3 but not very often. Just be patient

excuse me, the rock was pulled from a water filtration tank at LFS and delivered to me in a water vessel and they specifically told me it was live rock, the owner of the store, a very busy store in the county. The busiest very specifically told me it was live rock. I just can't imagine that he would have a reason to lie.
So my reputable LFS is committing fraud, misrepresenting what they are selling me? i'm not sure if we can get past this text unless we can get past that accusation. but I suppose it wouldn't bepast the bale of possibilities of Lfs casually mischaracterizing something. how sure are you? the otherwise i'll take them to task
besides that, I appreciate the values provided on measurements I'm looking for.

 

[JNalley]

excuse me, the rock was pulled from a water tank at LFS and delivered to me in a water vessel. So my reputable LFS is committing fraud, misrepresenting what they are selling me? i'm not sure if we can get past this text unless we can get past that accusation.

I mean, if they had it in their system, it would be aquacultured at that point. I still wouldn't call it "live rock" that has a very different connotation. The rock featured in your picture looks to be the caribsea manmade rock with purple paint, but it could also possibly be the Ark or Marco purple rock (which is mined rock that has been dyed). Still, wouldn't call either of those "Live Rock"... but I'm a bit old school.

 

[Garf]

excuse me, the rock was pulled from a water filtration tank at LFS and delivered to me in a water vessel and they specifically told me it was live rock, the owner of the store, a very busy store in the county. The busiest very specifically told me it was live rock. I just can't imagine that he would have a reason to lie.
So my reputable LFS is committing fraud, misrepresenting what they are selling me? i'm not sure if we can get past this text unless we can get past that accusation. but I suppose it wouldn't bepast the bale of possibilities of Lfs casually mischaracterizing something. how sure are you? the full so i'll take them to task
besides that, I appreciate the values provided on measurements I'm looking for.

There are varying degrees of "live". What are your ammonia readings now, I didn't really understand your result of "5P/M"

 

[JNalley]

ARK (Addictive Reef Keeping) dyed rock:

Marco Dyed Rock:

CaribSea "LifeRock" (Their previous formulation was solid purple/magenta like yours, they have changed it up since then):

Nature's Ocean Painted/Dyed Rock:

Actual Live Rock:

As you can see, the live rock is much more dynamic, has various and plentiful amounts of macroalgae, has dozens of colors of coralline, the shapes look a lot more open and organic, etc. That's "Live Rock", it's teaming with life... Not just a petrie dish for bacteria... I am not trying to minimize your LFS or your purchase, just trying to get to a place of understanding... I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum who would say "If it has bacteria on it, it is live rock" That's justa sign of the times, since Live Rock has been removed from the hobby for quite some time and is only now coming back with limited quantities...

 

[JNalley]

Just for some added clarity. To me (and probably some others around here) there should really be 4 or 5 classifications of rock found in the saltwater hobby.

Fake Rock: Cornerstone, CaribSea Life Rock, etc
Mined Dry Rock: Marco, CaribSea Moani, Addictive Reef Keeping, etc
Aquacultured Rock: The above rocks that have been in an active system and contain bacterial colonies
Maricultured Rock: The above rocks that have been resting on the bottom of the ocean for several years
Live Rock: Actual reef harvested rock

As I stated earlier, the 3 bottom tiers *could* be considered "Live Rock" depending on who you talk to, but I think it muddy's the conversation a bit and the 3 are clearly different from one another.

 

[Ksturg]

excuse me, the rock was pulled from a water filtration tank at LFS and delivered to me in a water vessel and they specifically told me it was live rock, the owner of the store, a very busy store in the county. The busiest very specifically told me it was live rock. I just can't imagine that he would have a reason to lie.
So my reputable LFS is committing fraud, misrepresenting what they are selling me? i'm not sure if we can get past this text unless we can get past that accusation. but I suppose it wouldn't bepast the bale of possibilities of Lfs casually mischaracterizing something. how sure are you? the otherwise i'll take them to task
besides that, I appreciate the values provided on measurements I'm looking for.

I agree that this is not actually “live rock” but it’s probably cured dry rock. Which is 100% ok to use as I use nothing but dry rock and cure it in my tank as it cycles. Only problem is you may have paid “live rock” price which would probably be a hefty price difference. I have rock like this sitting around from other builds that I didn’t use.

 

[Ballyhoo]

sorry I got confused between my nitrite and ammonia levels. The ammonia was .2 5 P p.m. maybe .50ppm the the coloration seemed with that range very light green.

actually, it's interesting. What is indicated as live rock is not reef rock from the ocean, now I'm learning. They are marketing and selling live rock which is not really live rock because it it's not pulled from the natural environment like the ocean. These are coming from the water vessels in their store. I don't know if they are dyed or not. That's interesting. I saw a lot of rock in the store that was clearly dry and very pale, white gray color. But the rock in the water tanks were very purple. anyways, if they came from their water tanks, that means that I presume the microorganisms and bacteria or more rapidly colonized than if I just pulled a dry one off the shelf. couldn't help but to add a couple fake decor because I don't know how long it'll be until the tank will look naturally nice.

There are varying degrees of "live". What are your ammonia readings now, I didn't really understand your result of "5P/M

 

[MrBrbsmoke]

I'd probably feel uncomfortable adding any live media with the amount of Juice present. Maybe swap the OJ with some AB+ down the road when you introduce anything living into the tank.

 

[Cell]

I disagree that the term "live rock" only refers to rock from the ocean. The terminology surrounding the rock we use in this hobby is already confusing enough.

 

[Garf]

very light green.

That's somewhat normal. The presence of nitrite may confirm ammonia detox.

 

[Ballyhoo]

OK , when would I be able to add my first clown fish or some crustaceans like a little lobster or shrimp or something?
Also, per the above post, nitrites came out negative like from what I could read zero ppm

 

[JNalley]

I disagree that the term "live rock" only refers to rock from the ocean. The terminology surrounding the rock we use in this hobby is already confusing enough.

it's confusing because it isn't clearly defined. There is a world of difference between Australian Live Rock or even Tampa Bay Saltwater and others Maricultured rock, than rocks that have been in an LFS sump for a few weeks/months/years. I would feel ok paying $25/lb for for former, but would only pay $3/lb for the latter... So how do you delineate between the two? Calling them both Live Rock and offering them for sale adds a level of confusion to the buyer...

(edited for clarity)

 

[JNalley]

OK , when would I be able to add my first clown fish or some crustaceans like a little lobster or shrimp or something?
Also, per the above post, nitrites came out negative like from what I could read zero ppm

Have you stopped dosing Ammonia? If so, and Both Ammonia and Nitrite are 0, test Nitrates, if they're high, then you're good to go and can add fish.

 

[Garf]

OK , when would I be able to add my first clown fish or some crustaceans like a little lobster or shrimp or something?
Also, per the above post, nitrites came out negative like from what I could read zero ppm

Ideally you would add say 1ppm ammonia in first, then see how long it takes to come back down. If it takes less than 48 hrs you should be good to start additions.

 

[Cell]

it's confusing because it isn't clearly defined. There is a world of difference between Australian Live Rock or even Tampa Bay Saltwater and others Maricultured rock, than rocks that have been in an LFS sump for a few weeks/months/years. I would feel ok paying $25/lb for for former, but would only pay $3/lb for the latter... So how do you delineate between the two? Calling them both Live Rock and offering them for sale adds a level of confusion to the buyer...

(edited for clarity)

Agree there should be some easy distinction by name, perhaps ocean vs aquacultured. But if i have a 20 yr old system that started with Marco, its still live rock.

 

[Ballyhoo]

Have you stopped dosing Ammonia? If so, and Both Ammonia and Nitrite are 0, test Nitrates, if they're high, then you're good to go and can add fish.

The last time I added Tim was yesterday. I’m wondering if I should stop now and test when it’s gone.

 

[JNalley]

Agree there should be some easy distinction by name, perhaps ocean vs aquacultured. But if i have a 20 yr old system that started with Marco, its still live rock.

Heh, this is why I put up 5 categories in one of the posts (proposed category names)

Fake Rock: CaribSea "LifeRock", CornerStone, TropicEden, etc.
Mined Dry Rock: Marco, CaribSea Moani, ARK (Addictive Reef Keeping), etc.
Aquacultured Rock: The above that has been in a system for a while
Maricultured Rock: TampaBay Saltwater, Live Rock n Reef, KP Aquatics, etc
Live Rock: Currently I only know of the Australian Live Rock being sold

Since all forms of the rock are eventually trying to look like and become the Ocean Harvested Rock, it only makes sense that it carries the name Live Rock (Ocean Harvested Live Rock is a mouthful, lol)

In casual conversation, I wouldn't mind fusion of the last two because they're pretty close in what you receive... But I don't feel like rock that has only ever been in an aquarium (or sump) for any length of time, can be put in the same class, it will get the job done, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't come with the same biodiversity you get with stuff from the bottom of the sea...

The last time I added Tim was yesterday. I’m wondering if I should stop now and test when it’s gone.

Once the Ammonia tests at 0, I would be fine with adding fish. But as I stated earlier, some reefers prefer to test the result by putting 1-2ppm of ammonia in and seeing if it goes to 0 within 24-48 hours... That's a personal choice.

 

[Ballyhoo]

well i'm not there yet, darn.