Only a 90g?? Cmon really?? Gotta think bigger!!! Much Bigger!!! Then you can have everything you want in the same tank.
Another conversation about how to chemically reduce nitrates.
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LOL, now we are talkin!!
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
Still people confused about pellets...
The definition of dosing is to add something to the water stream. Pellets add nothing to the water stream. Soluble Carbon dosing causes a temporary and unnatural condition whereas excess nutrients cause a "mini-bloom" of bacteria. These bacteria consume PO4 and NO3 and are either skimmed off, settle out or are consumed by something in the tank as bacterioplankton.
"Bio Pellets" are a substrate and a food source for bacteria in the water stream but limit the bacterial growth to the reactor(and the excess bacteria exits the reactor and is skimmed, eaten or settled). The bacteria population on the pellets will be consistent depending on the nutrient content in the water. Essentially it is "self adjusting", there will be more bacterial biomass when there are excess nutrients in the water and less bacterial biomass when the water has fewer nutrients.
Since there is a basically unlimited Carbon supply available, but not in the water stream, PO4 and NO3 are constantly consumed unless there is a deficiency of either PO4 or NO3. Since the Carbon supply is NOT in the water stream, it is not a food source for Cyanobacteria or other organisms in the main display tank or on your substrate.
Regarding "Bio Pellets" and Carbon dosing, no soluble Carbon is released into the water stream. Remember, "Bio Pellets" are inert... you can run them in a reactor at 1000GPH for 100 years in sterile salt water and they will not decompose or break down. They add NOTHING to the water. Only bacteria can break down the "Bio Pellets" and that is a biochemical process where the bacteria convert the polymer to another substance and absorb it through their own cell wall by osmosis. So even bacterial conversion can't add the "Bio Pellet" Carbon source to the water stream.
The closest similarity is the export of the bacterial biomass via the protein skimmer in both methods.
The definition of dosing is to add something to the water stream. Pellets add nothing to the water stream. Soluble Carbon dosing causes a temporary and unnatural condition whereas excess nutrients cause a "mini-bloom" of bacteria. These bacteria consume PO4 and NO3 and are either skimmed off, settle out or are consumed by something in the tank as bacterioplankton.
"Bio Pellets" are a substrate and a food source for bacteria in the water stream but limit the bacterial growth to the reactor(and the excess bacteria exits the reactor and is skimmed, eaten or settled). The bacteria population on the pellets will be consistent depending on the nutrient content in the water. Essentially it is "self adjusting", there will be more bacterial biomass when there are excess nutrients in the water and less bacterial biomass when the water has fewer nutrients.
Since there is a basically unlimited Carbon supply available, but not in the water stream, PO4 and NO3 are constantly consumed unless there is a deficiency of either PO4 or NO3. Since the Carbon supply is NOT in the water stream, it is not a food source for Cyanobacteria or other organisms in the main display tank or on your substrate.
Regarding "Bio Pellets" and Carbon dosing, no soluble Carbon is released into the water stream. Remember, "Bio Pellets" are inert... you can run them in a reactor at 1000GPH for 100 years in sterile salt water and they will not decompose or break down. They add NOTHING to the water. Only bacteria can break down the "Bio Pellets" and that is a biochemical process where the bacteria convert the polymer to another substance and absorb it through their own cell wall by osmosis. So even bacterial conversion can't add the "Bio Pellet" Carbon source to the water stream.
The closest similarity is the export of the bacterial biomass via the protein skimmer in both methods.
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So you're saying I can add as many biopellets as possible and the limitations of bacterial colonization depends on the amount of nutrients available?
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
Absolutely 100% correct.
However, for this reason, if you have a 200g tank with 120ppm NO3 and 10ppm PO4 you do NOT want to add 10 liters of biopellets (if you're supposed to use 1 liter), the bloom would be huge, possibly reducing O2, etc... but that's not like adding too much Vodka or Vinegar.
That is because the bacteria would be able to find a piece of Carbon (on the pellet), PO4 and NO3 in the water and grow. If there is unlimited or nearly unlimited Carbon source and substrate surface area nearly all of the NO3 and PO4 will be consumed in a short period of time, not good. This is why we have a recommended amount.
But in a normal aquarium with modest NO3 and PO4, it doesn't matter if you have 1 liter or 10 liters of pellets. If there are enough nutrients in your water to support x(biomass) then the amount of biomass will be the same no matter how many pellets, assuming you're over the minimum required. The only difference will be the density of the biomass over the entire surface area of the pellets. 1 liter of pellets will have y(bacterial density) and 10 liter of pellets will have y/10(bacterial density)
This is also why pellets are "self regulating". As nutrient levels in your system drop, the biomass on your pellets will likewise drop. On a very clean system there will be minimal bacterial activity on the pellets.
One user with a 180g fish system and 50" of fish length uses 1 liter of ecoBAK a year.
One user with a 250g reef system with pristine water uses maybe 100ml a year.
Access to the Carbon source is a constant. The variables are the NO3 and PO4 in the water. So picture Carbon in a reactor, NO3 and PO4 throughout the tank. Water flows in the reactor and "lower nutrient" water and some amount of biomass exit the reactor. The biomass should be skimmed or consumed, some will settle out and become a nutrient again.
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I understand completely...
I'm just still trying to figure out exactly how this all works, and that makes perfect sense. I do also understand too much too quick is a bad thing for our reefs.
I'm actually going to try and find the balance that will allow me to keep a very low amount of nitrate (>1) and phosphate (>.05). This may be some sort of a challenge for me rather than shooting for double 0.
I'm just still trying to figure out exactly how this all works, and that makes perfect sense. I do also understand too much too quick is a bad thing for our reefs.
I'm actually going to try and find the balance that will allow me to keep a very low amount of nitrate (>1) and phosphate (>.05). This may be some sort of a challenge for me rather than shooting for double 0.
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
No problem. Increase feeding or decrease amount of pellets (likewise decreasing pellet surface area)
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Wow, Jon! That's some great info! Thanks for your help!
WeLoveReefers
Community Member
So how often do you vodka dose and how much. I am worried I'll be dosing myself to much vodka and not the tank :tongue:
I really am not going to get into a huge issue, but there are plenty of people, myself included, that do not think the evidence suggests biopellets say in the reactor (microscopically) despite what the manufactures suggest, nor are they self regulating any more than liquid carbon evaporating. That was the idea when they came out. I suggest folks that are interested check it out more and remember people who sell the pellets just might have an interest in continuing to sell them.
That being said I don't want to get into an argument about things and I hope the pellets work great for all who choose to use them. I develop microbial additives for Dupont and in this business there is rarely a true "right and wrong", most things boil down to "maybe" and "possibly", but I promise I understand how biopellets were suppose to work, we have been wrestling with biodegradable plastics a very long time.
Check this article out:Feature Article: Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
They look at bacterial counts and include liquid carbon dosing. They found that liquid carbon dosing did not significantly increase the population in the system. SKimmers only remove around 30% or bacteria so the author suggests bacteria predation increases and those organisms are skimmer or otherwise utilized, but still it was surprising to not see drastically increased number.
Whatever people end up doing good luck to them!
That being said I don't want to get into an argument about things and I hope the pellets work great for all who choose to use them. I develop microbial additives for Dupont and in this business there is rarely a true "right and wrong", most things boil down to "maybe" and "possibly", but I promise I understand how biopellets were suppose to work, we have been wrestling with biodegradable plastics a very long time.
Check this article out:Feature Article: Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
They look at bacterial counts and include liquid carbon dosing. They found that liquid carbon dosing did not significantly increase the population in the system. SKimmers only remove around 30% or bacteria so the author suggests bacteria predation increases and those organisms are skimmer or otherwise utilized, but still it was surprising to not see drastically increased number.
Whatever people end up doing good luck to them!
With most things chemistry I defer to Randy Holmes-Farley who, if you didn't know, is perhaps the greatest chemist to every grace our hobby. Not only is he an amazing chemist, but has helped countless people over the year and has never sold anything to the reefkeeping community. His resume, notice the PhD from Harvard studying polymers:
Who is Randy and what is the Reef Chemistry Forum? - Reef Central Online Community
And what he says is the interaction between bacteria and pellets:
Attn: Randy-bio pellets - Reef Central Online Community
What does Randy dose? Liquid Carbon.
Few more of Randy’s thoughts on pellets:
What's Your Problem With Bio-Pellets? - Reef Central Online Community
I don’t think the marine hobby has another person like Randy that has no financial interest in his advise and has helped our community out so much with writing chemistry guides and articles.
Who is Randy and what is the Reef Chemistry Forum? - Reef Central Online Community
And what he says is the interaction between bacteria and pellets:
Attn: Randy-bio pellets - Reef Central Online Community
What does Randy dose? Liquid Carbon.
Few more of Randy’s thoughts on pellets:
What's Your Problem With Bio-Pellets? - Reef Central Online Community
I don’t think the marine hobby has another person like Randy that has no financial interest in his advise and has helped our community out so much with writing chemistry guides and articles.
This all depends on the size of the tank, but, you just need to dose the tank once a day using vodka, and its only in the MLS, so its not very much.
My dosing instructions are as follows:
Start out 1mls for 3 days.
Up it to 5mls for the next 4 days.
Up it 5mls the next week.
Every 7 days up it 5mls until you see your Nitrates start to come down, not all the way down, just start to move down. Whatever that dose your currently on, that will be your daily lowering dose, until you get the desired Nitrate number you want. At that point drop the dose in half, that becomes your daily maintenance dose.
Note: At 5mls, I'd either drip dose, or split the dose in half, and dose 1/2 in the morning then half 12 hours later. Even so that once your at your daily dose, I'd split that up also, so that your dosing twice. Better to have it dripped into your system.
Using it this way, will not harm a thing in the tank, you may however get a bacterial bloom, which is not harmful either, but unsightly, but no t to worry, as the Trates come down, and you cut the doseage this will go away by itself. With just 40 Nitrates, it shouldn't take long to get them where you want them.
Farley was dosing vodka before pellets were made. Why would he change horses in the middle of the race?
Because thats what he does. He will try anything out there, so he has a better idea what and how it works in the Reef system.
He gives many reasons for not using pellets in that thread, as have many on rc. He really isn't someone to discount something just because he doesn't want to switch.
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Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
I'm currently reaching out to Randy to discuss this and share some differences between ecoBAK and the polymers he is referring to.
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