Armegeddons

[surfn]

I think your right!

Rev, you are a very experienced zoa keeper, I have enjoyed your pictures for a long time, but I have to disagree with you. The reason why fish and other hard to keep animals die is usually because or mal nutrition. This seems to be a case of disease. I think we can all agree that some types of zoas are more prone to infection than others, a prime example is radioactive dragon eyes. I have seen more zoa pox cases pertaining to this strain than any other type. I have also saved colonies of hundreds of them with one dip in furan 2.

For example dragonettes....one type isnt any easier to keep than the other. This goes for other types of animals as well. Just because we gave this zoa a fancy name and a high price tag doesnt mean its requirements are any different from the hundreds of other types we keep. It just doesnt add up, it simply cannot be so similar and as some claim, "unique" in its care requirements at the same time.

I have personally never had the pleasure of keeping armegeddons, but I would happily if given the chance. I am also fairly certain I could do it successfully.

Let me ask you all this, out of every one here who has lost these zoas, have even one of you attempted a furan 2 dip before the colony's demise?

Furan 2 should be a go to for zoa problems just like iodine is a go to for SPS problems. The fact is it simply doesnt hurt healthy polyps, and has been proven time and time again to solve many zoanthid problems, both known like the pox, and other that dont necessarily show symptoms, although I feel that the same disease that prduce the white lesions can manifest itself without any outward signs other than closed polyps.

so why do you think most elegance corals 10 years ago were easy to keep, but now no one can seem to keep them alive in home aquariums?

b/c the theory is they were over collected from shallow water areas, and the ones that now come in are from deeper waters. there are temperature, pressure, and lighting issues here that do not fit into your disease theory.

there has been no real record of anyone keeping armagedons successfully to the point of growing out a mini-colony. so why is it so impossible to think they came from very deepwaters? same as current elegance corals do?

its highly doubtful 90% of the people who have tried to keep armagedons and have them die, lost them due to infection when 100% of their other zoas have no signs of any sort of disease. unless of course, this zoa species has basically no sort of "immune system" when compared to other zoas that thrive in the same tanks.

Another little bit of food for thought . . .

Since the concept of all zoas are the same has been brought up, I'll throw in some info about human susceptibility to infectious diseases. Its been shown that genetic variations can make people susceptible to certain diseases (leprosy and chronic hepatis B virus persistence for example). Most of the human population is not at risk for these diseases, but certain individuals with particular genetic variations are at risk. You could be married to a leper and never develop leprosy yourself, but your children would be at risk since they can inherit the gene that makes your spouse susceptible.

So while people are mostly the same, and zoas are mostly the same, they're not all exactly the same. In the case of Armagedons, hobbyists have been spreading around a clonal lineage with the same genetic makeup. It may have a genetic mutation that makes it susceptible to a disease that wouldn't otherwise infect other zoas.



I hope that makes sense and isn't too confusing. Just something else to think about. I like Anthony's idea as well, it's something that we come across is culturing cells in the lab. You can only culture them for so long before they crap out.

i hear nothing but crickets.....:hammer:

 

[dieselab]

sometimes things die because it's there time. we dont' really know enough about zoas to know if they "age/grow old"; and maybe a mature colony was brought in and it was spread around and by the time people got them they were already near the end of their life, i.e. past the age of fecundity

I like that. "Somethimes thing dies because its there time". Seriously though, armagedons are a PITA to keep alive.

 

[MarvinsReef]

I only tried 15 frags of them...

my biggest frag came from The Beaut... went from 5 to 10 polyps in a month and a half and slowly withered away... the rest did very well for the first few months with a polyp or two of growth but also ended up withering away very slowly.. I finally gave up on them but plan on taking the challenge sooner or later... one of the best color morph out there...

 

[zoanthidman]

I got mine a really long time ago...and have always had great growth from them!!!

 

[Christel Mei]

so why do you think most elegance corals 10 years ago were easy to keep, but now no one can seem to keep them alive in home aquariums?

b/c the theory is they were over collected from shallow water areas, and the ones that now come in are from deeper waters. there are temperature, pressure, and lighting issues here that do not fit into your disease theory.

there has been no real record of anyone keeping armagedons successfully to the point of growing out a mini-colony. so why is it so impossible to think they came from very deepwaters? same as current elegance corals do?

First off, elegance corals arent zoanthids, no one is propogating them or keeping other types with any type of comparison to the success that has been had with zoanthids.

Also, I highly doubt that these colorful zoanthids were collected in water deeper than 30 feet.

So where are people getting these from?...Wild colonies? Or is someone out there growing them, obviously if this so called strain has a lineage. Someone has to be having some success with these or they wouldnt be avaiable at all.

its highly doubtful 90% of the people who have tried to keep armagedons and have them die, lost them due to infection when 100% of their other zoas have no signs of any sort of disease. unless of course, this zoa species has basically no sort of "immune system" when compared to other zoas that thrive in the same tanks.

I have seen colonies disintegrate less than 5 inches from another colony of a different type, or for that matter, the same type with no ill effects onthe other zoas! Zoas are collected all over the world, I have no doubt that some diseases can kill lets a say an indo pacific zoa but not a carribean zoa Armegeddons may be a perfect example of this. Whether or not one colony of zoas shows signs of infection has nothing to do with other colonies. Have you ever had OR saved sick zoanthids before? I have persoanally saved a whole bunch. Enough to confidently say furan 2 works wonders.

Which brings me back to my original question, has anyone who has lost a colony of armegeddons tried to save the colony with any type of dip, particulaly a furan 2 dip?

 

[reef-nut]

There is a lot of the fancier zoas that are hard to keep! Could someone make a list, so people like me knows which ones are harder to keep? I am saving money to buy some nuclear greens. My question is nukes on this list?

 

[Christel Mei]

None are harder to keep than any others, thats one myth people use to make them expensive, if you can supress disease and keep your water good they are all fairly easy. Some grow slower than others, but not much. The larger the colony the more growth you are going to get, some guys are proping these strains from the very small colonies they attained and only get 1 or 2 polyps a month, rather than letting the colony grow out for a year or so.

I dont think they are a good coral for begginers though unless they fully understand all that goes into keeping zoas healthy.

 

[Christel Mei]

Because you can easily cure them all with Furan 2, even the types that are more easily infected. Zoa pox should be considered a non issue in this particular discussion.

If the person feels the extra time and effort it takes to dip a colony of zoas makes them harder to keep, then I guess so.

Water quality should always be a given, there is no excuse for keeping coral of any type in nasty water.

 

[surfn]

Because you can easily cure them all with Furan 2, even the types that are more easily infected. Zoa pox should be considered a non issue in this particular discussion.

If the person feels the extra time and effort it takes to dip a colony of zoas makes them harder to keep, then I guess so.

Water quality should always be a given, there is no excuse for keeping coral of any type in nasty water.

if theres one thing i've learned over the years in this hobby, there is no 1 miracle cure. and no matter how many things you think you can control.....there is always something you can't control for.

i'm glad you've had great success with your keeping zoas......just be careful of karma. just when you think you know everything....something will happen to your tank that will make you scratch your head.

 

[msman825]

some are diffrent , armys, ppe's, elect strawberrys, shizits, yellow subs. even saw a lot of folks have trouble with creamsicles, kedds reds, tubs blues. I think this would make a good poll

 

[revhtree]

It's quite obvious that some are harder to keep than other's, and if you think all zoas and palys can be kept, then I wonder why you have to have furan to do it.

 

[LiveRock27]

Could these zoas originate from a cooler part of the ocean and thus "withering" away because of the temp we keep most of our tanks?

 

[surfn]

Could these zoas originate from a cooler part of the ocean and thus "withering" away because of the temp we keep most of our tanks?

absolutely!!!! great point!!! of course its impossible to tell, but you can't rule out that possibility.

 

[revhtree]

Just for kicks and giggles....

OBTW I talked to a local buddy of mine that I gave a frag too about a year ago and his frag is still kicking!

 

[143gadgets]

I know someone who has a arm colony. He has had them for quite sometime. I got a frag from him and traded them off sometime later. I'm gonna contact him and see f I can't get a nice sized frag from him. Expensive, but well worth it IMO. Please don't pm me asking me who has them. I WON'T reveal my source.

 

[Mochis]

I had a frag of zoas, supposedly Armageddons that faded away just like you guys. I am meticulous about caring for my tank so I wanted to know why. I went to the guy that I purchased them from and his were doing fine. He does the same thing that I do, he mounts his frag, lets it grow and when it has grown off the cube on all sides he pulls the original frag out and passes it along to someone else. I asked him if we could inquire with the person that he got them from if he did the same. In the end I discovered that 3 people did the same. I would have made 4. I don't know if this could be the case with everyone else but I will only buy white frags if I am purchasing from someone that I don't know. It is my opinion that the zoas were just too old. I was given another frag from the same tank as the previous frag and they are doing fine.

 

[Christel Mei]

Wow this is turning into a great discussion!

surfn. I work at a LFS...I get to try all kinds of different ways to get rid of nasty stuff. Not just zoanthid isses, but SPS issues from bacterial montipora infections to red bugs to monti nudis and AEFW's. I have had my experiences with them all, and time to figure out the best ways to stop them. I am just tyring to help other people who are losing corals unneccesarily.

Coralnutz, I certainly understand your points, some strain of zoas may be more tolerant to poor tank conditions than others, for example bobby browns. BUT, it doesnt mean that should be an excuse to use not to stabilize the tank. Everyone should strive to create a good enviroment, it really isnt that hard with a little time each day. Keeping only corals that are more tolerant to poor conditions is just a patch over for shotty reef keeping.

It's quite obvious that some are harder to keep than other's, and if you think all zoas and palys can be kept, then I wonder why you have to have furan to do it.

Before I say anything else, EXCELLENT photography!

Some may be more likely to get a disease than others, but if you can cure it, why does it make this animal one that you should be less capable to keep?

I have personally only lost one type of zoa in all my expereinces with disease and zoanthids, which started about a year after I began keeping reefs. It was due to my lack of response. I did the same thing I feel most of you did with your prized aremegeddons....I simply let them wither away.

I have since learned that you always treat zoa issues at the first sign of any problems. I have saved many many sick zoanthids with a single 1 cap furan to 1 cup of tank water dip.

Why does everyone use iodine for SPS coral infections, particularly Montiporas? Because it has been proven time and time again to help solve problems and companys started to market this and now we have products like Reef Dip and Tech-D. I feel in the next few years we will see this happen with Furan 2 for zoanthids.

I have dipped zoas in just about everything to try to solve issues. Peroxide, freshwater, iodine, and numerous combinations of each. None of them actually did anything besides stress out the corals.

The least stressful, and most effective dip I have used, time and time again, is a mix of furan and tank water, for five to ten minutes, wit han airstone in the mix to get it flowing around the zoas.

I have used this for every sick zoanthid I have come across for the past year. Signs of zoa pox or not. I have not lost one type of zoa since I started doing this, I promise all of you. And I have hands on with A LOT of zoas, many of them pacific types that we get shipped DRY about once every 6 months. I solve any issues with these colonies, frag them up, save some of the types we dont have to prop them and sell the rest.

Im not sure why some of you are so opposed to using furan 2 for zoanthid issues? Have any of you had some kind of negative expereince with this product?

I have to ask again, did ANY of you dip you armegeddons in anything or did you just let them wither away?

 

[revhtree]

I tell you what Christel, I am going to order me a bottle of furan 2 right now after this post, and I have one or two little frags not doing well and I am going to dip them per your method. I will report back on the outcome. I am going to dip some PPE's and Redwines....

I will start a new thread and document with pics.

 

[revhtree]

BTW thanks for the compliment on the photo.

 

[revhtree]

Hey is in powder form?