Back at it! Peroxide vrs cyanobacteria

brandon429 · Apr 7, 2016

The orp drop phenomena goes back a long way, early 2000s per searches on the key terms. I saw a RC them thread w boomer and Randy on it yrs ago

It should be a good test to try a vat of fresh sw with same dilution and orp, and then the comparative tests on aged systems highlighting the organic store differences while dilutions were constant

twilliard · Apr 7, 2016

brandon429 said:
The orp drop phenomena goes back a long way, early 2000s per searches on the key terms. I saw a RC them thread w boomer and Randy on it yrs ago

It should be a good test to try a vat of fresh sw with same dilution and orp, and then the comparative tests on aged systems highlighting the organic store differences while dilutions were constant

Thank you Brandon as this would be a good comparison

waybad41willys · Apr 7, 2016

Would the h202 have a negative effect on good bacteria seem you are saying the reason it works on cyno is because it's a bacteria.

brandon429 · Apr 8, 2016

No effect on good bacteria we show, in the reef tank. This is debatable, ongoing.

Just like stenopus and lysmata are both shrimp, one is ultimately sensitive to peroxide and one is the toughest shrimp known to peroxide such that I dripped 15% on his head accidentally a few times for five years and he's in my YouTube videos in a tank getting shot with 35% test runs.

Keep in mind this entire current thread we are reading is based on 3% work, markedly safer than caustic 35%

Groupings do not work out as predicted regarding tank peroxide work, there are simply varying metabolic and biochemical differences that convey sensitivity or resistance to it

We catalog those differences in threads like these.

brandon429 · Apr 8, 2016

Y'all don't hammer me for brown sps lol this was power compact days and I was blasting everything with 35% as pre testing for the threads so that no offer made would be hypocritical. Sps was getting the beat-down back then, and as such it became habituated such that direct application of 35% directly on the sps wouldn't kill it, it still took over and blighted out the bowl.

show my habituated red mushrooms there, Alveopora grown onto the glass is getting splashed accidentally. that is 35% frothing directly on the anemone in the air (no dilution) and within one hour it's open full unburned. Within a week it fisses into four others at the base, they ended up taking over as fully immune to peroxide. Had to cut the mushrooms out.

*no illusions here, I wasn't dosing 5 mils of 35% into a gallon and then leaving it. What I was doing was opposite of TW's thread here, I had my tank drained and hit targets directly so the peroxide didn't hit sensitives in my bowl by diluting into the water. I would partially fill the bowl with clean water, after the shot and pic, then change that water back out so not much peroxide was in the bowl* I had short exposure time, but using 10x stronger peroxide than we are using here.

For the purposes of cyano studying, TW's thread is collecting full tank doses and how targets respond in dilution. Even though my way wasn't the same, it's still more details regarding very strong percentages and factors into the overall pool of info.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 8, 2016

buckeye82 said:
Peroxide

Sorry, I really meant it when I used the word "exactly".

What brand, what concentration, and how much.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 8, 2016

twilliard said:
Thank you Brandon as this would be a good comparison

Yes, I agree.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 8, 2016

FWIW, most cells seems to have quite a low ORP inside of them, so a lowering of ORP on adding peroxide may be due to release of the internal content of cells:

http://www.weizmann.ac.il/plants/Milo/images/Redox1100611Clean.pdf

"In budding yeast it is reported to have a redox potential of -290mV and for a mammalian cell a range between -170mV to -260mV based on the cell type, prevailing pH and whether it is proliferating, confluent or apoptotic."

The low ORP is probably due to the high concentration of the reduced form of glutathione:

http://book.bionumbers.org/what-is-the-redox-potential-of-a-cell/

"The concentration of glutathione in the cell is ≈10mM (BNID 104679, 104704, 111464), making it the second most abundant metabolite in the cell (after glutamate) ensuring that it plays a dominant role as an electron donor in redox control of protein function."

" Indeed in most cellular conditions the oxidized form is only a very small fraction of the overall pool but still with physiological implications."

ITreeferVA · Apr 8, 2016

to the pods question, I had a bunch in my fuge prior to dosing (1ml per 10g only once a day) and still have a bunch at day 10 of dosing. I may start the 2x a day at 1ml per 10 still can't seem to get ahold on the cyano. A week ago I also added new t5 to see if the spectrum may be some of the issue, and nitrates are holding around 5ppm and phosphates are reading 0 with my hanna checker

cowboy · Apr 8, 2016

Day 6 A.M. you can really start to see a huge change in the color and structure of the cyano. It is now black and starting to become honeycomb in structure. With in about 14 hrs you can see significant loss to the matte. The first picture was taken last night 4-7-16 at approx 8 p.m. the second picture taken 4-8-16 at approx 10A.M.

cowboy · Apr 8, 2016

Just finished a 20 gal water change and judging the smell of the mattes I removed definitely dead. If you have ever had the joy of smelling a dead anemone its right with it. Their are still a few spots on the sand bed but will be doing another WC in a few days i didnt anticipate how much i would be removing this round. All the dinos released with little effort and most of the hair algae.

Chrisboling · Apr 8, 2016

following

buckeye82 · Apr 8, 2016

cowboy said:
Just finished a 20 gal water change and judging the smell of the mattes I removed definitely dead. If you have ever had the joy of smelling a dead anemone its right with it. Their are still a few spots on the sand bed but will be doing another WC in a few days i didnt anticipate how much i would be removing this round. All the dinos released with little effort and most of the hair algae.

Looking good

httorihanzo · Apr 8, 2016

This is purely anecdotal and probably coinsidince but I dosed 40ml of the 3% in my 400 gal and the next day my large 7" mimic tang was covered in white film. Today he is dead and my clown fish looks like he did yesterday. I haven't added anything into the tank for 3+ weeks. I do not belive these are related but I needed to post this in case other see the same phenomenon and a connection could be remotely possible.

cowboy · Apr 8, 2016

I dont believe that would be related to the H2O2. Its sounds more like velvet from what you are describing.

twilliard · Apr 8, 2016

I believe that the peroxide did not contribute to the death of the fish.
@cowboy @buckeye82
Thoughts on this?
The dilution ratio IMO is too high to have any effect on fish.
Maybe @Humblefish can also give insight

httorihanzo · Apr 8, 2016

I feel that it's velvet too, just not sure how it was introduced to the tank.

cowboy · Apr 8, 2016

I am not sure how long velvet can stay dormant before showing its true colors but just like anything it will look for the opportunity to come up. But i do know in my 125 i have both sensitive fish and hardy and nothing is showing any ill effects.

buckeye82 · Apr 8, 2016

twilliard said:
I believe that the peroxide did not contribute to the death of the fish.
@cowboy @buckeye82
Thoughts on this?
The dilution ratio IMO is too high to have any effect on fish.
Maybe @Humblefish can also give insight

Agree. My water volume is pretty close at 450 gallons and all my fish including tangs are just fine for the week I've been doing this.

Hate to ask the obvious but was the 40ml dumped in all at once or slow? High flow area?