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My Tank Thread
Breaking News: We believe we have discovered at least one strain of velvet that survives 1.75 PPM copper, we recommend increasing to 2.0PPM to eradicate it.
@HotRocks and I have quarantined hundreds of fish over the past year and we've unfortunately learned a lot of hard lessons we can pass to all of you. The previously "accepted" and studied therapeutic level of copper for eradicating ich + velvet was 1.5 PPM. We suggested 1.75 PPM to account for human error and a cushion.
On TWO separate occasions, we've had velvet make it through copper. The first time, some QT's had CP (Chloroquine Phosphate) and the others Copper. When these were combined to a 125 G observation tank post-treatment, velvet can roaring in within 3-4 days very badly.
The first time we blamed CP (we found that the bags used in the filter media contained poly, so it was likely that the CP levels were reduced by the poly pad found in the HOB filters -- we had cut out and removed all carbon). This was still an important thing to know/learn (as common sense as it sounds).
This time we used ONLY copper, and combined only one large batch of fish from copper in to another sterile tank, and the same thing happened. So it may have been this strain surviving copper the first time as well. But for certain, from this last batch, it can survive copper levels around 1.75PPM.
Methodology: completely sterile tanks, bleached in-between use, zero cross-contamination, 10 feet or more away from one another, copper levels measured with the Hanna Copper Checker. 14 days in 1.75PPM, then transfer to another sterile quarantine. 14 days should be MORE than enough for the life cycle of velvet, which is pretty short.
Anyone with failed quarantine to velvet that did not add anything wet to the tank, cross-contaminate, or is as anal about ensuring everything is done by the book as @HotRocks is, this is the likely reason for the failure.
I've updated the "my quarantine process" thread first post, changing to 2.0 PPM copper, as well as the Hanna Checker thread. We will slowly be changing all suggestions to 2.0 PPM.
We are of course discussing chelated copper products such as Copper Power (our primary recommendation due to it being far more consistent and reliable than CopperSafe). Ionic copper such as Cupramine and Cuprion have a therapeutic range of .5 - .6 -- previously .45 - .55 but we are comfortable increasing it in light of this new discovery.
What Has Caused This?
Well, if it is true and not human error or some misunderstanding about velvet, I suspect that LFS and the distribution system maintaining sub-therapeutic copper levels is probably the most likely reason. Like any organism, velvet adapts. The more we subject fish to sub-therapeutic levels of medication, the more likely these organisms are to “evolve” or adapt. I understand why LFS and distributors do this; it keeps fish alive and keeps fish prices low. Unfortunately, there are lasting impacts.
What Do We Do?
1) Treat your fish with therapeutic copper (those that can handle it, which is the vast majority) or CP. In reality, fish are kept in copper before they arrive, acclimating them to a QT with copper right from the beginning isn't going to be as hard on them as you'd think since they've been in copper for some time since collection, theoretically. We've done it hundreds of times with good success. Chloroquine Phosphate can be used on fish such as sharks, rays, some puffers, etc. that do not typically handle copper well.
2) Use accurate copper testing methods like the Hanna Checker. Each failed treatment where velvet or ich failed to be eradicated gives the parasite more resilience to the "medication". Color kits are near impossible to be accurate with, and with such a risk of reinfection you need to be certain of the level of copper in the tank.
Avoid copper in the DT for the same reason unless absolutely the only option. This because it is much harder to maintain constant therapeutic copper levels due to absorption with substrate and rocks in anything but a sterile hospital/quarantine tank.
Footnote: This has NOT been proved scientifically, only anecdotally. We didn't perform scrapes and confirm anything in a lab. It happens so quick we have to act quick to save fish, and it's too late for many by the time we discover it. It is possible that another course of action would fix the issue such as extending the length of copper another week. Someone else will have to fund/perform any scientific research. It was without a doubt, not ich or brook. Disregard at your own risk.
#reefsquad
@HotRocks and I have quarantined hundreds of fish over the past year and we've unfortunately learned a lot of hard lessons we can pass to all of you. The previously "accepted" and studied therapeutic level of copper for eradicating ich + velvet was 1.5 PPM. We suggested 1.75 PPM to account for human error and a cushion.
On TWO separate occasions, we've had velvet make it through copper. The first time, some QT's had CP (Chloroquine Phosphate) and the others Copper. When these were combined to a 125 G observation tank post-treatment, velvet can roaring in within 3-4 days very badly.
The first time we blamed CP (we found that the bags used in the filter media contained poly, so it was likely that the CP levels were reduced by the poly pad found in the HOB filters -- we had cut out and removed all carbon). This was still an important thing to know/learn (as common sense as it sounds).
This time we used ONLY copper, and combined only one large batch of fish from copper in to another sterile tank, and the same thing happened. So it may have been this strain surviving copper the first time as well. But for certain, from this last batch, it can survive copper levels around 1.75PPM.
Methodology: completely sterile tanks, bleached in-between use, zero cross-contamination, 10 feet or more away from one another, copper levels measured with the Hanna Copper Checker. 14 days in 1.75PPM, then transfer to another sterile quarantine. 14 days should be MORE than enough for the life cycle of velvet, which is pretty short.
Anyone with failed quarantine to velvet that did not add anything wet to the tank, cross-contaminate, or is as anal about ensuring everything is done by the book as @HotRocks is, this is the likely reason for the failure.
I've updated the "my quarantine process" thread first post, changing to 2.0 PPM copper, as well as the Hanna Checker thread. We will slowly be changing all suggestions to 2.0 PPM.
We are of course discussing chelated copper products such as Copper Power (our primary recommendation due to it being far more consistent and reliable than CopperSafe). Ionic copper such as Cupramine and Cuprion have a therapeutic range of .5 - .6 -- previously .45 - .55 but we are comfortable increasing it in light of this new discovery.
What Has Caused This?
Well, if it is true and not human error or some misunderstanding about velvet, I suspect that LFS and the distribution system maintaining sub-therapeutic copper levels is probably the most likely reason. Like any organism, velvet adapts. The more we subject fish to sub-therapeutic levels of medication, the more likely these organisms are to “evolve” or adapt. I understand why LFS and distributors do this; it keeps fish alive and keeps fish prices low. Unfortunately, there are lasting impacts.
What Do We Do?
1) Treat your fish with therapeutic copper (those that can handle it, which is the vast majority) or CP. In reality, fish are kept in copper before they arrive, acclimating them to a QT with copper right from the beginning isn't going to be as hard on them as you'd think since they've been in copper for some time since collection, theoretically. We've done it hundreds of times with good success. Chloroquine Phosphate can be used on fish such as sharks, rays, some puffers, etc. that do not typically handle copper well.
2) Use accurate copper testing methods like the Hanna Checker. Each failed treatment where velvet or ich failed to be eradicated gives the parasite more resilience to the "medication". Color kits are near impossible to be accurate with, and with such a risk of reinfection you need to be certain of the level of copper in the tank.
Avoid copper in the DT for the same reason unless absolutely the only option. This because it is much harder to maintain constant therapeutic copper levels due to absorption with substrate and rocks in anything but a sterile hospital/quarantine tank.
Footnote: This has NOT been proved scientifically, only anecdotally. We didn't perform scrapes and confirm anything in a lab. It happens so quick we have to act quick to save fish, and it's too late for many by the time we discover it. It is possible that another course of action would fix the issue such as extending the length of copper another week. Someone else will have to fund/perform any scientific research. It was without a doubt, not ich or brook. Disregard at your own risk.
#reefsquad
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