Chemiclean Nuked tank!

[Knapp870]

I know you said 48 hours since dose. I was wondering when it began to go south? Sounds like a little bacterial bloom. Might actually clear up in a couple days without much intervention. Something similar happened to me while dosing some Dr. Tims products. Took only 3 days and the issue was gone. May not be the same?

I don't think so. One or two SPS were completely whited out, several others severely pale. Everything else was just ticked off.

 

[ngvu1]

Like the other gentlman keep saying "Make sure your skimmer running 100% of the time"; ignore the micro bubbles if you see them. You need the skimmer running wet or dry....

 

[Knapp870]

This may help with figuring out what went wrong. You must use inside dimensions and measure the water height in your sump. This may also help in any future dosing of anything into your Tank. I wish this could be put up as a sticky I think a lot of people would be surprised how little water there is in their Systems.
http://reef.diesyst.com/volcalc/volcalc.html

I'll measure sump depth again but when I entered my "guess" numbers I came up with 83 gallons...which should have been spot on with 8 scoops per the directions.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I know you said 48 hours since dose. I was wondering when it began to go south? Sounds like a little bacterial bloom. Might actually clear up in a couple days without much intervention. Something similar happened to me while dosing some Dr. Tims products. Took only 3 days and the issue was gone. May not be the same?

Chmeiclean is going the other way from Dt t. Chemiclean is targeting gram positive bacteria and killing them, beneficial bacteria are gram negative. dt t addition was a bloom of bacteria being born.
http://www.captivereefs.com/forum/chemistry/boyds-chemiclean-how-does-work-21275/#.V-FkgZgrKUk

@Thales Is it plausible that in an established aquarium with a high bacterial and animal bio load that there were enough other gram positive bacterias present that were effected by the chem, so it reduced the o2 that much quicker that the air stones were not able to keep up?. So despite following the recommended dosing amount, the dosage still resulted in an overdose because the actual bacterial population effected was(could not) not taken into consideration?

 

[skim]

Don't forget to fill in the rest. Amount of Substrate, Amount of rock and that's not factoring in pumps and skimmer.

 

[Knapp870]

Don't forget to fill in the rest. Amount of Substrate, Amount of rock and that's not factoring in pumps and skimmer.

Yep

 

[that Reef Guy]

maybe you got a bad batch? I've used it recently (once) as a final option and it was very effective.

Has anybody else heard of bad batches?

I haven't.

 

[that Reef Guy]

How long after you added the Chemi-Clean did you have Issues?

 

[Knapp870]

Has anybody else heard of bad batches?

I haven't.

I read an article about bad batches that appeared brown in color many years ago. As I said, I used this from what I remember successfully a long time ago and I think it was even this same batch but not certain.

The first 24 hours looked good, it was after that where stuff all of a sudden were extremely faded. I have hope that things aren't completely dead.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I can only see 2 issues with using Chemi-Clean.

I know many people that have used it many times over the years with no issues.

One friend of mine used it once and claimed that it killed corals.

I told him it must be something else not the Chemi-Clean.

Recently I found out just how much he feeds his fish which is Insane!

I do not know how he doesn't crash his tank from Ammonia due to what he feeds his fish!

I thought I feed alot and worry often.

He Feeds like 6 Times what I do every day.

My thought is that he had Corals die because he was Powerfeeding like he normally does while using Chemi-Clean.

It will kill the Beneficial Bacteria so you have to be very very careful when you use it.

I always tell people

1. Use an Airstone because Chemi-Clean Severly Lowers Oxygen and can Kill Animals because of that. I think I read somewhere that within a Minute of Adding it to the Tank like 75 Percent of the Oxygen is Stripped Out of the Tank! Many Many Years Ago the First Time I used Chemi-Clean I Didn't use an Airstone. First Day was Fine. Came Back from work on Day 2 to Find 75 Percent of my Fish Dead, Starfish Dead, Shrimp Dead. Corals were all Fine Though.

2. Don't feed Anything (No Fish Food and No Coral Food at All) for 4 Days. Obviously Don't Feed During the 2 Day Treatment but also Don't Feed the Day Before and Don't Feed the Day after it is Over. Then the Second Day after the Water Change and After the Treatment is Over Slowly Start Ramping Up Feeding to your Normal Feeding so you do not cause an Ammonia Spike due to Lack of Beneficial Bacteria in the Tank.

3. Do a 50 Percent Water Change after Treatment. I know the Box says 25 Percent but to be safe do a 50 Percent Water Change.

4. Don't Forget to Add Carbon After the Treatment. Carbon will Pull Out Any Remaining Chemi-Clean After the Water Change.

 

[skim]

It may be a dumb question but you used level scoops?

 

[that Reef Guy]

I read an article about bad batches that appeared brown in color many years ago. As I said, I used this from what I remember successfully a long time ago and I think it was even this same batch but not certain.

The first 24 hours looked good, it was after that where stuff all of a sudden were extremely faded. I have hope that things aren't completely dead.

So as Long as the Power is White it is OK.

And Brown it is Bad.

So You used a Brown Batch then Stuff Started Fading after 24 Hours.

Is that Correct?

 

[Lenny_S]

@Knapp870 sorry for your troubles. Chemiclean is a pretty potent antibiotic. The times I've used it in my tank or helped out family members with using it we always followed a very rigid process...
1) Manually remove as much cyano as possible

When the cyano dies off it releases a small amount of toxins into the water, if you have a lot in the system when you start it could cause problems. Since you can't use carbon while the treatment is ongoing there is nothing to remove them. This can be compounded by the corals (especially softies and Zoas) releasing toxins from stress.​

2) Get the dose right

We use this calculator and it accounts for sump, sand, and rock. http://reef.diesyst.com/volcalc/volcalc.html​

3) For an in sump skimmer, remove the cup and set it wide open (if not use a large air stone and air pump)

It's critical to keep a lot of gas exchange going during the whole process​

4) Add the dose slowly

It seems to be less of a shock to the system if you add the dose over the course of a few hours, the liquid Chemiclean is great for this, but you can do it with the dissolved powder too.​

5) Blackout the tank and sump during the treatment

This seems to increase the effectiveness of the treatment and lowers the stress for the critters.​

6) At the end of treatment do a 25% WC and add GAC back to the system

We've done the WC by putting the cup back on the skimmer and running a line from it to a bucket to remove the water and let it skim super wet. This seems to accelerate the removal of the remaining Chemiclean.​

The product has been very effective and safe for us, hope these procedures can help others use it a little safer.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Chmeiclean is going the other way from Dt t. Chemiclean is targeting gram positive bacteria and killing them, beneficial bacteria are gram negative. dt t addition was a bloom of bacteria being born.
http://www.captivereefs.com/forum/chemistry/boyds-chemiclean-how-does-work-21275/#.V-FkgZgrKUk

That explanation of erthromycin and gram positive bacteria is sound. However, chemiclean states it doesn't contain erthromycin?

 

[luke33]

You have any updated pics? IMO its a bad batch or a coral got upset and released something and then a chain reaction occurred. I would vote on the second especially if your water was all cloudy when you got home. If O2 like you said, i believe your fish would have been the indicator and would have perished first. I have used a few times in my day and never had any issue's. I don't feel like it was an overdose and don't think expired erythromycin would cause this either. Sorry to hear this.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Not sure if it was because it was old idk what the shelf life is.

I do not think they list a Date on the Package but that is a Good Point.

If you have Chemi-Clean Lying Around and do not know how Old it is go the LFS and Buy a Brand New Box.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

It will kill the Beneficial Bacteria so you have to be very very careful when you use it.

one difficulty is we(hobbyists esp and science too) don't exactly know what these are and what ones are beneficial to the corals, the term bacterial farming is used and is a theory being researched. a corals gut is after all on its skin so to speak. esp the thin skinned stony ones. "SPS need an established tank" ie high bacterial load? But many corals flourish in low bacterial tanks(softies)"easy" corals. ?fleshy internal guts?

erthromycin

sorry not a pharmacist, still learning. Doesnt matter. it kills bacteria. what besides the cyano strains you can see that it kills comes into question, like us and high doses of antibiotics can wipe out gut bacteria.

My question to Mr Ross was, was so much other bacteria present it resulted in this mass die off. .

 

[that Reef Guy]

That is awful. Just went and looked at some reviews of the product and was saddened to see how many people had their tanks wiped out or at least had significant die-off from this product. Yet so many people love it that it gets a very high overall review score.

I Feel that most of these Issues are from.

- Lack of Oxygen
- Overfeeding while using Chemi-Clean

Not to say it isn't some other reason like Bad Batch or Old Chemi-Clean or something else though.

 

[that Reef Guy]

This is due to the lack of O2
In heavily stocked tanks it is absolutely critical to maintain O2 as it will drop suddenly from the respiration of coral.
Keep the skimmer running 100% and get an air-stone running ASAP.

This is Key.

So Many People use Chemi-Clean without an Airstone!

Definetly use an Airstone.

If your Tank is Big Use Multiple Airstones.

I can't Stress that Enough.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Overfeeding while using Chemi-Clean

may I ask why this is?