Chemistry Woes...?

[CodyRVA]

So, lately i've been having some chemistry issues which have related to some minor RTN in some of my SPS, leaving others unaffected, and completely wiping out a few more. I may or may not have this issue just about resolved, but it comes and goes so any input is welcome.

Chemistry:
NO3: 1
PO4: .15
PH: 8.1
ALK: 8.3
CA: 475
MG: 1380
Salinity: 1.024

80 Gallon rimless
30 Gallon sump
Skimz monster DC 163 skimmer
Jebao 800 GPH RP
ATI 6 bulb

Obviously the anomaly there is the PO4, which believe it or not peaked at 1. I've had issues in the past with striping my system of nutrients and since i was already running pellets, I decided to throw some GFO in a mesh bag and test 24 hours later vs adding a large amount to my reactor.

Within 24 hours the PO4 dropped to .50, still crazy high, but a fair change. So, I added more GFO and waited. My NO3 was actually as high as 25, but after kicking up the agitation in my pellet reactor, incorporating a nitrate reducer by instant ocean (did not want to do, but did anyway), and added a small amount of additional pellets for good measure, the nitrates dropped pretty quickly. However, the PO4 wouldn't budge; even after mixing more GFO with my carbon in my BRS reactor, it held strong. I started out with 1/2 cup in a mesh bag, and each week moved up by 1/2 cup. I'm currently running 2 cups, changing weekly.

Eventually I gave in and gravel vacuumed the sand bed and cleaned the sump. I'm always resistant to water changes during chemistry issues because i've always found i've altered the chemistry too much and done more harm than good, but with the PO4 holding strong I really didn't see any other option. At this point the PO4 dropped to between .25 and .50, Salifert test kit not easy to read.

Stranger yet... Not all corals were affected. Specifically, only my acros and montis. My stylos look amazing, LPS and softies happy as can be. Chalices are definitely angry, but my Cyphastrea aren't affected. I do have a hulk lepto that's pretty ticked though. This is what made this kind of hard to figure out, half of my SPS were affected while the others were not. One minute my birdnest were happy, and then they weren't. I was nervous of pests, but so far i've yet to identify any.

Currently i'm running 2 cups of carbon mixed with 2 cups of GFO in a BRS reactor. Cranked my skimmer up to as wet as i can get it, and changing both filter socks, more frequently (every other day). I had read in another forum that someone had a similar issue and discovered they had a copper contamination. I have tested and this is not the case. I've also noticed that prior to the RTN and loss issues, specifically with my SPS, my demand for ALK increased and my demand for CA decreased. I can only assume this is due to the stoppage of growth in my corals.

Side note. I had recently moved and got lazy with changing socks and making frozen food and just fed large amounts of flakes. So, i'm guessing this might be the culprit and it's just taking this long for the PO4 to be exhausted. Also, i have no algae what so ever in my display. My sump does grow some hair algae, but nothing crazy. I do have chaeto that gross like a beast which I have been trimming, but that's pretty much it.

I'm sure i'm missing something, so feel free to ask questions. Any and all input is appreciated. Like i said, i may have this thing just about beat, but it's by no means over.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Geez I wish I were a better chemist.
The alk change is I think actually nutrients related and you wound up adding alk from the two part to keep up.

Hang on.
#reefsquad. @Diesel

 

[Daniel@R2R]

@Randy Holmes-Farley is probably the best person to help. I'll move this to the chemistry forum.

 

[Brew12]

I can tell you that I experienced RTN on 3 SPS frags because of an Alk jump of 3dkh. Noobish dosing mistake on my part. Lost 2 of them, 1 is damaged and might still be lost. None of the other corals in my tank showed any negative impact.

 

[CodyRVA]

Thanks everyone. So I've got a bubble magus doser, dosing ALK, CA, and MG. When I adjusted ALK it was very slightly, same with CA, but it was several times I had to adjust. So, I saw my chemistry slowly changing, but no big swings.

And for what it's worth, I run my fuge light reverse from 6 pm to 6 am, since the nutrient spike I added 4 hours, 2 each way so 4 pm to 8 am; this has shown good signs of helping the chaeto grow faster.

 

[Diesel]

Let me add this I don't know anything

With all the changes that been happening you can also dose manually bacteria in the tank as that will help with the nutrients.
What's your ALK consumption when you don't dose for 24 hrs?
I think you should also back off on the GFO, a little bit is good adding more you going to fast and only bad things happen fast in this hobby.

 

[CodyRVA]

Let me add this I don't know anything

With all the changes that been happening you can also dose manually bacteria in the tank as that will help with the nutrients.
What's your ALK consumption when you don't dose for 24 hrs?
I think you should also back off on the GFO, a little bit is good adding more you going to fast and only bad things happen fast in this hobby.

I've been increasing the GFO over a span of 6 weeks now give it take. I was nervous at first Bc I have stripped my system before, but now I feel obligated to try. I'll check on my ALK consumption.

Also, I did manually dose a bottle of bacteria, seemingly had no affect.

 

[Diesel]

When you take off the GFO from the system how much and fast is your Po4 going up and in what time frame?

 

[CodyRVA]

When you take off the GFO from the system how much and fast is your Po4 going up and in what time frame?

Not sure, I've been running it since I saw the nutrient issues, kinda nervous to take it offline.

Another side note, my pellet reactor outputs directly into my skimmer intake.

 

[Diesel]

Not sure, I've been running it since I saw the nutrient issues, kinda nervous to take it offline.

Another side note, my pellet reactor outputs directly into my skimmer intake.

You have to know what the issue is before you can fix it.
Po4 can come from different sources but the main is food.
If I have to have a elevated Po4 measurement I just don't feed for a few days but instead use extra No3 to dose as not to starve my corals and bacteria.

Is the bio pellet directly in your skimmer or just in front of the intake?

Another note is that you running GFO and Bio pellets at the same time, many times that will go wrong on the corals.

What do you use for test kit on the Po4 and No3?

 

[Brew12]

Po4 can come from different sources but the main is food.
If I have to have a elevated Po4 measurement I just don't feed for a few days but instead use extra No3 to dose as not to starve my corals and bacteria.

Is the bio pellet directly in your skimmer or just in front of the intake?

Another note is that you running GFO and Bio pellets at the same time, many times that will go wrong on the corals.

Let me add this I don't know anything

Hmm.. for a person that doesn't know anything you seem to have a lot of experience and knowledge....

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Hmm.. for a person that doesn't know anything you seem to have a lot of experience and knowledge....

Ahh, thats nothing!

 

[Diesel]

Hmm.. for a person that doesn't know anything you seem to have a lot of experience and knowledge....

Correct..... but what do I know

 

[CodyRVA]

You have to know what the issue is before you can fix it.
Po4 can come from different sources but the main is food.
If I have to have a elevated Po4 measurement I just don't feed for a few days but instead use extra No3 to dose as not to starve my corals and bacteria.

Is the bio pellet directly in your skimmer or just in front of the intake?

Another note is that you running GFO and Bio pellets at the same time, many times that will go wrong on the corals.

What do you use for test kit on the Po4 and No3?

Agreed. I guess that's what i'm saying, from what i'm gathering i'm laying odds its the PO4, whether thats true or false time will tell. I haven't had any parameter swings or other issues with the exception of the excessive nutrients. I used to dose amino acids, but very sparingly and haven't for weeks since noticing the nutrient issue. The pellet reactor is a modified HOB model that i extended the plumbing on to accommodate for the shallow sump, so the pump and output are both in the same chamber with the skimmer. The reactor output pipe stops directly in front of the skimmer input.

I have run GFO and pellets in the past, but had the opposite problem as previously mentioned with stripping nutrients. I have not used GFO since and have only ran pellets, until I found this problem and started introducing GFO again to combat the PO4.

All my test kits are Salifert.

Another side note. This tank was moved to a new location 4 hours away back in July. However, I placed many frags after setting the system back up and they were already encrusting before this issue arose. My fear, is many inverts growing in my sump died and created a massive source of PO4, in addition to my over feeding.

Also, it's not uncommon lately to find snails upside down in their shells, not trying to flip themselves. Made me fearful of an ammonia spike, but i'm sure i would see other issues if that were the case; like i said, many of these acros were encrusted before this all happened. I'm guessing PO4 can have the same affect on inverts as ammonia? My fighting conch has also become less active. Overall, my snails behavior hasn't changed, it's just become more common to find randoms upside down not struggling to flip (i check often, thus they weren't neglected).

I've never had a PO4 issue before, so can any one chime in as to how long it takes to extract it from the system, again... assuming this is my issue? That's obviously a loaded question, i'm sure the more PO4 in the system & the stronger the source, the longer its going to take to remove, just curious as to how i should manage this issue if it's going to be a matter of time. I also have a storm of sponges growing in this tank, also noticed new ones showing up that are pink in color, the others are an off yellow/beige color and have been there for a long time.

Thoughts?

 

[CodyRVA]

Another thought before I forget; while I'm using a 4 stage RODI reading 0 TDS, the water supply has obviously changed since I moved, would it be a good idea to test chloramines or should my RODI remove those anyway?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Go slower.
Reduce the Po just a bit at a time.
No too. It's not that bad and find the source.

The snail thing is weird. But I don't know is there algae in your tank to eat.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't see anything in the current numbers that would cause RTN.

Are you using tap water?

The snail thing sometimes happens with very high magnesium. Have you tested it? Added it?

 

[CodyRVA]

I don't see anything in the current numbers that would cause RTN.

Are you using tap water?

The snail thing sometimes happens with very high magnesium. Have you tested it? Added it?

Nope, RODI, have newish filters checked tds, all my parameters are posted above. PO4 was as high as 1.0 I believe, have to check to confirm, but it was crazy high. I dose ALK, ca, and mg, but no swings. Mg has been around 1350 for months, I wanna say i dose 8 ml per day from the doser.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nope, RODI, have newish filters checked tds, all my parameters are posted above. PO4 was as high as 1.0 I believe, have to check to confirm, but it was crazy high. I dose ALK, ca, and mg, but no swings. Mg has been around 1350 for months, I wanna say i dose 8 ml per day from the doser.

FWIW, 1 ppm phosphate by itself doesn't cause RTN.

A rapid drop might possibly, but if it started before you lowered it, then that wouldn't be it.

 

[CodyRVA]

FWIW, 1 ppm phosphate by itself doesn't cause RTN.

A rapid drop might possibly, but if it started before you lowered it, then that wouldn't be it.

Well, other than high nitrates and phosphates I'm not sure what could have caused it. I have a log book of my parameters, I test weekly. As mentioned, my demand for ALK increased and CA dropped, but no swings, it all happened slowly.

My sps got brown tips and started losing color, some eventually experienced RTN, some did not. Since my actions of attacking the nutrients I have gotten some color back, but it's not back to normal yet.