Cycle question
- Thread starter dieselgoose
- Start date
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And when you get there Diesel, they're going to report nh4 to you and react in just the way Erin did: advise you to react to something you can clearly see requires no reaction. I've spent time covering nh4 vs nh3 readings and as long as we keep overlooking that, the fear will persist. You aren't reporting nh3 in your ammonia samples you're seeing, that's the entire problem. Your nh3 is fine since day one and we don't expect it to be zero.
I was able to predict how your tank was running because the thread i linked is 31 pages long of predictions using updated cycling science where we know nh3 never runs zero in any stocked reef tank.
When your lfs reports nh4 ammonia to you and the panic continues, and you buy something to add to the tank when I'm directly telling you not to, that's why I don't post up top much here at all. Many (but not all) people just won't listen, they make up false cycle risks that never pan out.
this thread was worth it to show our readers in the false stuck cycle thread yet another example of a reef past day ten doing fine. Diesel its a little disappointing you weren't convinced by our patterns logged and predictions fulfilled, but that's exactly how old cycling science wants you to think: as a buyer ready to make another purchase at the sales place you're about to visit who doesn't use nh3 meters when they measure water.
That you followed through with the tank picture we needed earns my thanks. Dburr it's been nice seeing you too!
I was able to predict how your tank was running because the thread i linked is 31 pages long of predictions using updated cycling science where we know nh3 never runs zero in any stocked reef tank.
When your lfs reports nh4 ammonia to you and the panic continues, and you buy something to add to the tank when I'm directly telling you not to, that's why I don't post up top much here at all. Many (but not all) people just won't listen, they make up false cycle risks that never pan out.
this thread was worth it to show our readers in the false stuck cycle thread yet another example of a reef past day ten doing fine. Diesel its a little disappointing you weren't convinced by our patterns logged and predictions fulfilled, but that's exactly how old cycling science wants you to think: as a buyer ready to make another purchase at the sales place you're about to visit who doesn't use nh3 meters when they measure water.
That you followed through with the tank picture we needed earns my thanks. Dburr it's been nice seeing you too!
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Dburr1014
7500 Club Member
Not a good example, didn't even open it. Says in the box, heater went to 82 degease. They didn't even dump in the bacteria until day 3.Took 10 seconds to find a literal sh**ton
One example
Cycling with fish = fish died why??
Hi Everyone, I tried the fish to cycle my tank and the fish died. 5gal tank Day 1 live sand and dried rock Day 2 let it sit Day 3 added turbo 900 and a firefish Day 4 fish dead -All levels 0 My only thoughts are that the heater has been erratic and found that it went from 78 to 82 even...www.reef2reef.com
dieselgoose
Community Member
Oh don’t plan on adding anything to the tank. 2 things will happen today. 1st I will let the LFS test the water just to see what they get. (To confirm I am testing properly) My Hanna checker will be here sometime around 3 and I will test for nitrates then. If the LFS, my own API and the new Hanna checker all confirm nitrates I will have no choice but to believe the science that the tank is cycled and I will move on to the next part of reefing. Will just be moving my timeline up by a few weeks which isn’t a bad thing for sure.
No, that's still incorrect. you are adding qualifiers that don't come from 31 pages of assessment on cycles like yours.
You are expected to have some nitrite at this stage, and we covered for pages in my link why that does not matter. If you get a positive reading of nitrate it'll be a nitrite tainted sample, you can't accurately test for nitrate this early. (by what day on a cycling chart is nitrite dropping?)
and if you get a reading of no nitrate that means nothing-there are 1000 nitrate-zero reefs here who aren't uncycled.
You have two tiny fish in 75 gallons of dilution with a massive loading of cycled rocks...
Your cycle is simply done and old cycling science training will never allow you to feel ok with that, there will always be a new qualifier added even though I predicted the exact status of your tank in our chat before posting here and then your tank pic exactly matched every descriptor. Erin and Zombie want you to be uncycled, so that's the mode chosen and it does not reflect even ten minutes read of the massive work threads provided.
The exact range of nh3 a Hach Nh3 meter will read on your tank is .001-.005 nh3, not zero, and it has nothing to do with anything you may discern using alternate tests at home or at a lfs. readers in our cycling study thread will watch the reaction and verification continue long past the stated start date, that's what we study there, how old cycling science training hyperfocuses on a bad test kit relay (nh4 vs nh3 information, still being ignored) to the exclusion of all other indicators and especially to the exclusion of all discussion around disease risks in adding unprepped fish.
There is a bounty outstanding on a truly failed cycle that is never going to be fulfilled here, because cycles with that much surface area, dilution, time and inoculation are never halfway done they're ready on day one any digital ammonia meter from any company will show-- it doesn't have to be seneye that's just the most affordable option.
It's been exhausting and stressful posting here the last 20 hours, but it's worth it to log another closed out cycle. Your tank is exactly like the 31 pages of examples we've logged, no further proofing is required beyond what has been laid out here.
I'll still recommend you go back Diesel and read post #1 of the how to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle thread, it covers disease prevention options that you're skipping. more fish are going into that tank, it's 75 gallons...if you skip disease preps in addition to ones already skipped, you can find the expected outcome from that by reading Jay's fish disease forum and seeing the hundreds of pages of issues skipping all initial preps causes.
You are expected to have some nitrite at this stage, and we covered for pages in my link why that does not matter. If you get a positive reading of nitrate it'll be a nitrite tainted sample, you can't accurately test for nitrate this early. (by what day on a cycling chart is nitrite dropping?)
and if you get a reading of no nitrate that means nothing-there are 1000 nitrate-zero reefs here who aren't uncycled.
You have two tiny fish in 75 gallons of dilution with a massive loading of cycled rocks...
Your cycle is simply done and old cycling science training will never allow you to feel ok with that, there will always be a new qualifier added even though I predicted the exact status of your tank in our chat before posting here and then your tank pic exactly matched every descriptor. Erin and Zombie want you to be uncycled, so that's the mode chosen and it does not reflect even ten minutes read of the massive work threads provided.
The exact range of nh3 a Hach Nh3 meter will read on your tank is .001-.005 nh3, not zero, and it has nothing to do with anything you may discern using alternate tests at home or at a lfs. readers in our cycling study thread will watch the reaction and verification continue long past the stated start date, that's what we study there, how old cycling science training hyperfocuses on a bad test kit relay (nh4 vs nh3 information, still being ignored) to the exclusion of all other indicators and especially to the exclusion of all discussion around disease risks in adding unprepped fish.
There is a bounty outstanding on a truly failed cycle that is never going to be fulfilled here, because cycles with that much surface area, dilution, time and inoculation are never halfway done they're ready on day one any digital ammonia meter from any company will show-- it doesn't have to be seneye that's just the most affordable option.
It's been exhausting and stressful posting here the last 20 hours, but it's worth it to log another closed out cycle. Your tank is exactly like the 31 pages of examples we've logged, no further proofing is required beyond what has been laid out here.
I'll still recommend you go back Diesel and read post #1 of the how to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle thread, it covers disease prevention options that you're skipping. more fish are going into that tank, it's 75 gallons...if you skip disease preps in addition to ones already skipped, you can find the expected outcome from that by reading Jay's fish disease forum and seeing the hundreds of pages of issues skipping all initial preps causes.
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Purely out of curiosity....
You always tout seneye reading like they are the word of god, but has anyone ever validated the seneye just to make sure it's accurate? I have never seen this type of data or post.
We know for fact the par meter is OK, but not anywhere near as accurate as an actual par meter.
You always tout seneye reading like they are the word of god, but has anyone ever validated the seneye just to make sure it's accurate? I have never seen this type of data or post.
We know for fact the par meter is OK, but not anywhere near as accurate as an actual par meter.
dieselgoose
Community Member
I’m not disagreeing with your assessment or your science I’m just saying I will go through multiple tests and checks before I progress in what I am going to do with the tank. That is the entire reason I posted and even joins this forum. I also believe that you are super defense on your way or your interpretation of a cycle. I didn’t really disagree with you on what you said but you seem to just want to agree a mute point. I really appreciate the advice and the knowledge from multiple prospectives. Just a small piece of advice, maybe try not and ruffle so many feathers on your quest to educate. Again I appreciate your contribution to this thread and my education of the hobby. I’ll definitely seek out your opinion in the future even if only for a balance lol. Usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle of contradicting opinions.
Dburr1014
7500 Club Member
Yup, so many people giving advice on here in there own perspective. Who's right who's wrong?
Got to weed it all out, get to the science and come to your own conclusions.
API can show you trends and will not show you a hard number. They are hard to read sometimes and do give you false readings.
You clowns look perfectly fine in your picture. Just take it slow going forward in adding stock. Bacteria build up AFTER every new fish addition, so you have to take account for that.
Happy reefing!
SlugSnorter
2500 Club Member
Ammonia needs to build at least somewhat to cycle, Bacteria supplements really help, but will still need time to grow and cover the rocks and media to cycle the tank.
you should return the clowns until the tank is cycled, fish in cycling will harm the clowns if not kill them. The tank will cycle just fine without fish.
If you cannot return the clowns, temporarily move them to a QT system and use SeaChem Prime to control ammonia
EDIT: seems like things have already wrapped up, ignore this if the issue is solved.
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glb
7500 Club Member
Any updates on your tank? I agree with the others who think .5 is too much ammonia to have fish in your tank. Could you move them out to another tank or return them? We want to see you succeed!
Here is the final and absolute last disposition (from me) for this thread based on logged years prior work:
Don't test any more for ammonia or nitrite. Prepare and instate a fish disease protocol coming directly from the stickies in Jay's disease forum. The current status of the tank is: stocked using no protocol.
The ammonia here will never be out of spec as long as the tank has water and as long as a disease from skipping disease preps doesn't kill all the fish while you are gone and they're left to rot in place. Ammonia rising will never precede a fish kill, a fish kill all left in place to rot from non cycling events can be a cause, and no cheap test kits are required to discern if all your fish are dead and needing removal. The matter is now fully closed.
Don't test any more for ammonia or nitrite. Prepare and instate a fish disease protocol coming directly from the stickies in Jay's disease forum. The current status of the tank is: stocked using no protocol.
The ammonia here will never be out of spec as long as the tank has water and as long as a disease from skipping disease preps doesn't kill all the fish while you are gone and they're left to rot in place. Ammonia rising will never precede a fish kill, a fish kill all left in place to rot from non cycling events can be a cause, and no cheap test kits are required to discern if all your fish are dead and needing removal. The matter is now fully closed.
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Sorry about all the noise. Let's look at the history of your tank... You added some live rock (and dead rock), you added bacteria, you added fish to provide ammonia, ammonia eventually rose to .5 ppm, you then saw nitrate rise but did not see a nitrite spike, and I didn't see where ammonia has fallen noticeably.
Your tank is still cycling. The nitrate reading is possibly the result of two things: 1) Some (very little) cycling of nitrite to nitrate via bacteria present in the live rock; and 2) Some interference of a very low level of nitrite with your nitrate test kit. Nitrite and Nitrate should be completely ignored this early in a cycle. The key now is waiting for ammonia to drop to zero and ignoring anything else.
Your tank is still cycling. The nitrate reading is possibly the result of two things: 1) Some (very little) cycling of nitrite to nitrate via bacteria present in the live rock; and 2) Some interference of a very low level of nitrite with your nitrate test kit. Nitrite and Nitrate should be completely ignored this early in a cycle. The key now is waiting for ammonia to drop to zero and ignoring anything else.
There is a lot of stupidity in these three pages, so let me just ask if the ammonia is more under control and the clowns are alright, for now? Nitrite could be interfering with your nitrate test, but don't worry about that. Nitrate is not going to be a concern of yours for many more weeks or months - just forget about it until you start to see some film algae. Don't sweat nitrite - it is mostly harmless to your fish so don't even bother testing it, IMO. Keep the ammonia lower and wait for it to hover and stay very near zero. Cut way back on feedings and change some water if you have to to keep it as low as possible. API are not great test kits and have a huge margin for error, so even if you can order a Salifert Test Kit somewhere for $12-15, it might be worth it. The truth is that ammonia beyond a trace can hurt gills even if death does not come... think of it as being in a burning building even if you do not die of fire where your lungs can be damaged for a long time. Of course, our fish cannot tell us this and some humans presume that if they don't die then they are OK. However, you do need a bit of ammonia to fuel some bacterial growth... so low level amounts.
Once your ammonia levels get near zero, then slowly up your feeding amount until you are at a normal level for your current fish, all the time having levels near zero. Once this stabilizes, then you are past the first part which is just for this bio load. New additions need to be slow too to allow the bacteria to grow and catch up with your new load since you won't have an abundance to just multiply. Tanks can still have issues even after the first part where they have some bacteria, but not enough to quickly multiply.
EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal
Just another girl who likes fish
This is excellent advice and a great plan to follow!
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"Tanks can still have issues even after the first part where they have some bacteria, but not enough to quickly multiply."
JDA that is false, never been shown and if you can you can collect the bounty. But we know you won't be posting any proofs. you can claim stupidity exists, but to me making hollow statements with no precedent, measure or proof and with no future proof coming is worse, it's patently misleading.
*you will specifically not post any proof of a partial cycle in a bottle bac + 15 pounds cycled rock tank cycle at 75 gallons using two clownfish measured by a Hach nh3 meter or a seneye, is the direct bet.
This group is bound and determined to assess a problem here and we can all see in pictures this tank has been fine for a while now, feeding, swimming, water clarity all indicative of a full cycle and nobody has even asked to see the actual Nh4 api test to see if it matches the color found in ten million other api tests ran on cycled reefs.
from our false stall cycle study thread, we are watching pure unfounded panic being advised to this new cycler, matching none of the three years of work (and outcomes) we have collected.
Future assessments here will be all paragraphs and no links we can study for patterns, readers watch for this trend.
JDA that is false, never been shown and if you can you can collect the bounty. But we know you won't be posting any proofs. you can claim stupidity exists, but to me making hollow statements with no precedent, measure or proof and with no future proof coming is worse, it's patently misleading.
*you will specifically not post any proof of a partial cycle in a bottle bac + 15 pounds cycled rock tank cycle at 75 gallons using two clownfish measured by a Hach nh3 meter or a seneye, is the direct bet.
This group is bound and determined to assess a problem here and we can all see in pictures this tank has been fine for a while now, feeding, swimming, water clarity all indicative of a full cycle and nobody has even asked to see the actual Nh4 api test to see if it matches the color found in ten million other api tests ran on cycled reefs.
from our false stall cycle study thread, we are watching pure unfounded panic being advised to this new cycler, matching none of the three years of work (and outcomes) we have collected.
Future assessments here will be all paragraphs and no links we can study for patterns, readers watch for this trend.
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Diesel, please take a new ammonia reading today and post the actual vial + color compare card in clean white daylight lighting, that way we can see your nh4 levels.
we can then consider what nh3 conversion data will look like from your pic (over ten times less than it originally appears unconverted) and then after nh3 conversion we can match that to your tank pic, clear water, fish normalcy, inoculation details using the fastest most thorough cycling bac available (top winner in Dr. Reef's 100 page bottle bac thread) and overall contrasting opinions in this thread.
we can then consider what nh3 conversion data will look like from your pic (over ten times less than it originally appears unconverted) and then after nh3 conversion we can match that to your tank pic, clear water, fish normalcy, inoculation details using the fastest most thorough cycling bac available (top winner in Dr. Reef's 100 page bottle bac thread) and overall contrasting opinions in this thread.
since prior predictions have not been incorrect here, once we get the posted nh4 actual measurement we can match that to colors posted by throngs of confused api ammonia testers on their 5 year old tanks, I have about 400 threads ready showing the panic. I already posted an 8 page thread of false red sea NH4 panics prior, but we haven't been reading that for patterns so far. Nobody debating here read it or has ever managed such a thread on their own, to be able to link back. that's convenient.
dieselgoose
Community Member
As soon as I get home I will test for ammonia. Nitrite and nitrate and post results.
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