Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[badd]

Metro doesn't work fully. It has only an 86% success rate of irradiating protists. There are other groups of medicine that have a better success rate, still bleach at present is the best option.

I'd also like to put calm to some fears that Dino's are in every tank.

No they are not. Again this is more aquarium ancedotal theory rather than a science.

My first aquarium setup suffered them. This was built on pure live rock and live sand, of a very good quality.

I'd added no end of copepods, amipods mini stars etc to boost biodiversity.

It did become infested in Dino's.

The second setup was a mixture.of live seeded synthetic and premium Fiji. Same story.

This time it's live synthetic and dry rock, mb7 cycled, with added amipods and copepods. No trace (thank God) of Dino's.

Dino's are no different than anything else you introduce. Be it bryopsis or bristle worms. If they are on the rock or frag, if you don't quarantine or dip well enough. You will contaminate.

Fresh water does kill Dino's based osmotic shock. It will rupture the cell wall. I've read success stories brining sg down to 1.010.

I've stated before my belief (quote my belief) the reasons some blackouts work. I believe it is to do with the users filtration and diversity of critters feeding in dark.

Lights out sends the Dino's in to the water column to seed new areas. Powerful filtration and carnivorous bio diversity over an extended period could very well be the key.

Purging sand from aquarium will prevent a refuge for the cysts.

H202 dosing works on some strains of Dino's but in dosgae a.ounts is insufficient to kill osteo Dino's. If you want to h202 those you need a few hundred ml per litre. But that's fatal to just about everything. How do I know? I tried it.

PS I'm not having a dig here at anyone but there is so much disparity in this hobby, it's almost impossible to find any truth.

So far. Bleach each works.

+1

 

[reddog]

Metro doesn't work fully. It has only an 86% success rate of irradiating protists. There are other groups of medicine that have a better success rate, still bleach at present is the best option.

I'd also like to put calm to some fears that Dino's are in every tank.

No they are not. Again this is more aquarium ancedotal theory rather than a science.

My first aquarium setup suffered them. This was built on pure live rock and live sand, of a very good quality.

I'd added no end of copepods, amipods mini stars etc to boost biodiversity.

It did become infested in Dino's.

The second setup was a mixture.of live seeded synthetic and premium Fiji. Same story.

This time it's live synthetic and dry rock, mb7 cycled, with added amipods and copepods. No trace (thank God) of Dino's.

Dino's are no different than anything else you introduce. Be it bryopsis or bristle worms. If they are on the rock or frag, if you don't quarantine or dip well enough. You will contaminate.

Fresh water does kill Dino's based osmotic shock. It will rupture the cell wall. I've read success stories brining sg down to 1.010.

I've stated before my belief (quote my belief) the reasons some blackouts work. I believe it is to do with the users filtration and diversity of critters feeding in dark.

Lights out sends the Dino's in to the water column to seed new areas. Powerful filtration and carnivorous bio diversity over an extended period could very well be the key.

Purging sand from aquarium will prevent a refuge for the cysts.

H202 dosing works on some strains of Dino's but in dosgae a.ounts is insufficient to kill osteo Dino's. If you want to h202 those you need a few hundred ml per litre. But that's fatal to just about everything. How do I know? I tried it.

PS I'm not having a dig here at anyone but there is so much disparity in this hobby, it's almost impossible to find any truth.

So far. Bleach each works.

Agreed. I've heard the same thing about cryptocaryon irritans (aka marine ich). Just like dino, they are not found in every tank. They are introduced somehow.

Just like everything else in this hobby, we have to really dig to find the truth. There's so much misinformation out there.

If you are persistent enough, you can dig through the plethora of information until you get a general idea of what you need to do or what works.

There's always somebody out there that's willing to "take one for the team", which helps a lot. Thus how bleach came to be!

I start my bleach next Friday. Hopefully I will be one of the success stories. If I nuke my tank or kill my fish I am going to be very disappointed, but it will be nobody's fault but my own.

 

[Paullawr]

Twillard applied a level of methalogy to his work. Documenting the steps. Initially this was with metro. My guess and twillard will answer for me, that bleach was a last ditch/curiosity.

He has done more than the companies we rely on for treatments.

Many of these companies are.basing their treatments on ammonium based solutions which whilst toxic do better at killing certain alga than protists.

These things are survival experts. It's millennia of evolution. When the water quality lessens due to our tinkering (read failed attempts at cure) the encyst until we think we have won the war.

As I say I'm not having a dig. What works for one won't work for a hundred in this hobby. However when dealing with this terrible disease the less misguided truth the better.

Believe me, it saves a lot of heartache.

 

[Lowefx]

So what is this, so I can combat it.

 

[Paullawr]

Ultimately the best cure is prevention. As with any bacterial or viral infection.

We safe guard ourselves during epidemics or even attempting to avoid the seasonal flu.

Apply the same logic to that slice of ocean.

What I will say to those battling, you will win, but expect losses.

Then once have won, learn from the husbandry mistakes. Don't risk adding that frag without proper procedures first.

I just wish and hope that one day people whom trade frags be it LFS or mate take those same precautions and prevent these things in the first place.

Christ this is sounding like a HIV awareness leaflet....

 

[Paullawr]

So what is this, so I can combat it.

It's a flagellate based on the motion. Low density though so that's a good sign and dead cells. So whatever you have treated with has had an effect.

If you want a species ID sorry cannot help you.

Is your tank bare bottom? If not clear out the sand and continue as is with your treatment.

 

[Paullawr]

Just for the record there are over 2000 strains documented. So 100 % ID is sometimes hard. It doesn't look like osteo though.

 

[Lowefx]

It's a flagellate based on the motion. Low density though so that's a good sign and dead cells. So whatever you have treated with has had an effect.

If you want a species ID sorry cannot help you.

Is your tank bare bottom? If not clear out the sand and continue as is with your treatment.

It's not bare bottom, and that was after about 3hours in the sun before the microscope. I use zeovit, but it always comes back after a day or two after a water change.

 

[domination2580]

Twillard applied a level of methalogy to his work. Documenting the steps. Initially this was with metro. My guess and twillard will answer for me, that bleach was a last ditch/curiosity.

He has done more than the companies we rely on for treatments.

Many of these companies are.basing their treatments on ammonium based solutions which whilst toxic do better at killing certain alga than protists.

These things are survival experts. It's millennia of evolution. When the water quality lessens due to our tinkering (read failed attempts at cure) the encyst until we think we have won the war.

As I say I'm not having a dig. What works for one won't work for a hundred in this hobby. However when dealing with this terrible disease the less misguided truth the better.

Believe me, it saves a lot of heartache.

I agree 100%. I have actually done tests as far as prevention goes on dinos. And so far as I can see have been successful. Twilliard has been super busy so just waiting for him to have some time to confirm my findings....after that is all said and done I can let everyone know what I did as a dip to eradicate dinos....osteo specifically.

 

[Paullawr]

Ok whatever route you take I recommend getting rid of the sand.

Cysts lay dormant in it..

Twillard confirmed a theory of mine that there would still be active dinoflagellates within the sandbed even after successful treatment of bleach in the main aquarium.

I'm not sure if the died at a later stage but why risk it.

 

[BoneXriffic]

Metro doesn't work fully. It has only an 86% success rate of irradiating protists. There are other groups of medicine that have a better success rate, still bleach at present is the best option.

I'd also like to put calm to some fears that Dino's are in every tank.

No they are not. Again this is more aquarium ancedotal theory rather than a science.

My first aquarium setup suffered them. This was built on pure live rock and live sand, of a very good quality.

I'd added no end of copepods, amipods mini stars etc to boost biodiversity.

It did become infested in Dino's.

The second setup was a mixture.of live seeded synthetic and premium Fiji. Same story.

This time it's live synthetic and dry rock, mb7 cycled, with added amipods and copepods. No trace (thank God) of Dino's.

Dino's are no different than anything else you introduce. Be it bryopsis or bristle worms. If they are on the rock or frag, if you don't quarantine or dip well enough. You will contaminate.

Fresh water does kill Dino's based osmotic shock. It will rupture the cell wall. I've read success stories brining sg down to 1.010.

I've stated before my belief (quote my belief) the reasons some blackouts work. I believe it is to do with the users filtration and diversity of critters feeding in dark.

Lights out sends the Dino's in to the water column to seed new areas. Powerful filtration and carnivorous bio diversity over an extended period could very well be the key.

Purging sand from aquarium will prevent a refuge for the cysts.

H202 dosing works on some strains of Dino's but in dosgae a.ounts is insufficient to kill osteo Dino's. If you want to h202 those you need a few hundred ml per litre. But that's fatal to just about everything. How do I know? I tried it.

PS I'm not having a dig here at anyone but there is so much disparity in this hobby, it's almost impossible to find any truth.

So far. Bleach each works.

Well said

 

[taricha]

I'd also like to put calm to some fears that Dino's are in every tank.
No they are not.

True, however when you have dinos, you often have more than one kind. Makes you feel like dinos are everywhere, just waiting for opportunity. I've had blooms of 4 different species in my tank. And seen same in other systems. This is another reason for the unreliable reports of what "works" or "doesn't work"

Fresh water does kill Dino's based osmotic shock. It will rupture the cell wall. I've read success stories brining sg down to 1.010.

I've stated before my belief (quote my belief) the reasons some blackouts work. I believe it is to do with the users filtration and diversity of critters feeding in dark.

Lights out sends the Dino's in to the water column to seed new areas. Powerful filtration and carnivorous bio diversity over an extended period could very well be the key.

Purging sand from aquarium will prevent a refuge for the cysts.

H202 dosing works on some strains of Dino's but in dosgae a.ounts is insufficient to kill osteo Dino's. If you want to h202 those you need a few hundred ml per litre. But that's fatal to just about everything. How do I know? I tried it.

Lotta truth in 5 strong paragraphs. Two notes to add. Amphidinium don't leave sand at lights off, they go down.
And dinos pushed into water column by lights off are also susceptible to UV.

 

[reddog]

Ok whatever route you take I recommend getting rid of the sand.

Cysts lay dormant in it..

Twillard confirmed a theory of mine that there would still be active dinoflagellates within the sandbed even after successful treatment of bleach in the main aquarium.

I'm not sure if the died at a later stage but why risk it.

Ugh. I'm not removing my sand. Guess I'll have to see what happens.

 

[Paullawr]

Agree. Hence why I say I have a belief that certain filtration 'could' be the reason some people have a greater success.during blackouts.

Reef keeping is my hobby. IT is my profession. They both have similarities.

Hardly two systems are the same.
Results are often based on trial and error.

Take three 60 litre aquariums.
All have the same lighting.
Tank A runs a canister filter.
Tank B runs a sump/sock setup.
Tank C runs a refugium, internal filter.

Already without many variables there are three distinct forms of filtration.

What would work best with Dino's? I can tell you now B will be least effective.....Until additional is added.

I would have at a guess A would/could be the most effective given the following.

Canister filters tend to offer strong cryptic zones for sponges and amipods to exist.
Downward force followed by multiple stage pass of media is likely to hinder Dino reseed.
Dark environment for trapped cells inhibits their 'bloom effect'.
Lastly I had greater effect of ridding aquariums with this setup over say B whereby the Dino will pass through the sock.

Now add UV. If that is inline your can filter is better still.

Let's not consider some external filters are the ONLY source of water movement. Thus more in, less cells out.

As I say so many variables and that's what makes this hobby frustrating at times.

It's like diagnosing said coral "insert genius here" not doing well. The first thing people say is..
'Params'?
Sorry but that being out of whack probably applies to less than 2 percent of people posting on a reef forum.

Secondly, 90% of people asking this won't really understand in full the relationship of each major and minor trace.
It's said because it's the done thing. You want to help. But in reality haven't a clue.

It's like a mechanic diagnosing your car troubles with an oil, water and petrol check. Sure you will get one or two right.....

The thing is we are all guilty of wanting to help. But don't lose face when you don't know. It's best to say I dont know rather than coming up with some plausible let but not proven theory.

 

[Paullawr]

Ugh. I'm not removing my sand. Guess I'll have to see what happens.

I guess you have your reasons. Try stirring it then.

Personally I replace my sand every 6 months in two stages. It gets full of crud even with the best syphoning.

Don't believe me? After syphoning over a period of time. Take it out...And rinse in RO. Slosh it about. The water will be brown. You will probably get bored before it's crystal clear following water changes.

Twillard did report success with bleaching despite cells being active in sandbed. Don't forget though his tank has maintained an equilibrium with Dino's. So no two tanks.the same philosophy again.

Personally I'd ditch the.sand, bleach dose then get some new stuff in. But hey that's me.

 

[Paullawr]

@reddog love your profile pic. Looks like whatever was going down in that glass deserved another!

 

[reddog]

@reddog love your profile pic. Looks like whatever was going down in that glass deserved another!

Thanks! We were at Dick's Last Resort in Gatlinburg, TN. It was a huge margarita.

 

[reddog]

Agree. Hence why I say I have a belief that certain filtration 'could' be the reason some people have a greater success.during blackouts.

Reef keeping is my hobby. IT is my profession. They both have similarities.

Hardly two systems are the same.
Results are often based on trial and error.

Take three 60 litre aquariums.
All have the same lighting.
Tank A runs a canister filter.
Tank B runs a sump/sock setup.
Tank C runs a refugium, internal filter.

Already without many variables there are three distinct forms of filtration.

What would work best with Dino's? I can tell you now B will be least effective.....Until additional is added.

I would have at a guess A would/could be the most effective given the following.

Canister filters tend to offer strong cryptic zones for sponges and amipods to exist.
Downward force followed by multiple stage pass of media is likely to hinder Dino reseed.
Dark environment for trapped cells inhibits their 'bloom effect'.
Lastly I had greater effect of ridding aquariums with this setup over say B whereby the Dino will pass through the sock.

Now add UV. If that is inline your can filter is better still.

Let's not consider some external filters are the ONLY source of water movement. Thus more in, less cells out.

As I say so many variables and that's what makes this hobby frustrating at times.

It's like diagnosing said coral "insert genius here" not doing well. The first thing people say is..
'Params'?
Sorry but that being out of whack probably applies to less than 2 percent of people posting on a reef forum.

Secondly, 90% of people asking this won't really understand in full the relationship of each major and minor trace.
It's said because it's the done thing. You want to help. But in reality haven't a clue.

It's like a mechanic diagnosing your car troubles with an oil, water and petrol check. Sure you will get one or two right.....

The thing is we are all guilty of wanting to help. But don't lose face when you don't know. It's best to say I dont know rather than coming up with some plausible let but not proven theory.

I'm an IT guy as well. Maybe we do well at a hobby like this because we are used to problem solving. I believe I can solve anything if I try hard enough.

 

[badd]

I belive twilliard found dino up to a 1/4 in sand bed. . Believe it is because of the lack of light.. this is not a quote. .just of top of head from reading this or another thread.. my substrate was last place I found active dinos.. I kept stirring during dosing.. dinos are like a std.. and people need to protect them selves....not trying to scare anyone lol.. but I fought for 3 months to kill of that nasty brown snot strings...then I found this thread. .and followed along.. metro did make a dent.. but bleach was my cure..

 

[domination2580]

It's great that we have people who are willing to eat the bullet to test this out.