DIY two part links

[beaslbob]

Perhaps we need a sticke with little more then links to good articles.

like:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[beaslbob]

Oh golly gee whillikers, farm out, outta state.

I finally got a stickie some place.

:wink:

 

[RBursek]

I believe Randy developed the 2 part solution for BRS or he gave them permision to use his. Here is link to just about all you would need to know for most of us or can even comprehend on reef chemistry.
Reef Chemistry Articles - Reef Central Online Community Archives

 

[cherokee_dude]

The link from this post pretty much did that... and you can add them to your own google gdocs folder for quick/phone app access as well

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/f16/google-docs-reef-info-30860.html

Here's the OG Gdocs link as well...
Google Docs

 

[Wijic]

This is awesome. My only questions are that the article notes that in 2007, MAGFlakes manufacturers said they 'very strongly recommend against using this product in reef aquaria'. Should I... be worried about that at all?

Also, as somebody still learning about 2 part dosing, am I right in thinking that while the calcium chloride mixture and the baking soda mixture should be added to the tank at the same time, they should not be mixed or added from the same dosing bottle?

Also, also, am I right in believing that you can't just dump the daily amount into the sump in one go, but that it has to be dripped in, slowly, throughout the day?

 

[beaslbob]

This is awesome. My only questions are that the article notes that in 2007, MAGFlakes manufacturers said they 'very strongly recommend against using this product in reef aquaria'. Should I... be worried about that at all?

one method for making magnesium chloride results in some ammonia. But with our dosing levels the amount is so small as to not be a danger to our reef tanks. Live rock with corraling algae should be enough and definately a macro filled refugium or algae turf scrubber. Even aerobic bacteria will convert it as well.

Also, as somebody still learning about 2 part dosing, am I right in thinking that while the calcium chloride mixture and the baking soda mixture should be added to the tank at the same time, they should not be mixed or added from the same dosing bottle?

calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate mixed together will precipitate calcium carbonate. So neither calcium nor carbonate is added to the water. So you have to keep them seperate add seperately so that the concentration prevents that.

Also, also, am I right in believing that you can't just dump the daily amount into the sump in one go, but that it has to be dripped in, slowly, throughout the day?

Kalk should be dripped to prevent pH problems. But you can add a daily dose of both calcium chloride then sodium bicarbonate to the sump at one time. The idea is again to keep the concentration low enough to prevent the precipitation.



my .02

 

[Wijic]

Kalk should be dripped to prevent pH problems. But you can add a daily dose of both calcium chloride then sodium bicarbonate to the sump at one time. The idea is again to keep the concentration low enough to prevent the precipitation.

Would adding 1 part in the AM and the other in the PM prevent the calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate from making calcium carbonate?

 

[beaslbob]

Would adding 1 part in the AM and the other in the PM prevent the calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate from making calcium carbonate?

As long as the concentration does not exceed precipitation levels. yes.

but the same reasoning applies to pouring in one, then pouring in the other a few seconds later.

My .02

 

[RBursek]

This is awesome. My only questions are that the article notes that in 2007, MAGFlakes manufacturers said they 'very strongly recommend against using this product in reef aquaria'. Should I... be worried about that at all?
It has not been proven but with regular WC bromide does not build up in the tank, but I get mine from BRS or and BFS to be sure.

Also, as somebody still learning about 2 part dosing, am I right in thinking that while the calcium chloride mixture and the baking soda mixture should be added to the tank at the same time, they should not be mixed or added from the same dosing bottle?

They do not needed to be added at the same time and I would wait a few minutes inbetween so you would not cause precipitation. They cannot be mixed together or run in the same line if using one dosing pump.

Also, also, am I right in believing that you can't just dump the daily amount into the sump in one go, but that it has to be dripped in, slowly, throughout the day?

That depends on the size of your sump and how much you are adding. If adding at one time do it in a high flow area. Some of my answers are up in the queted area.

 

[RBursek]

Residential Ice Melters
They have assured me the Mg Cl sold as ice melt Safe Step 8300, and is mined in Utah and is sold as is to the aqauriums in Las Vegus casinios and is reef safe. He also said that the Ca Cl Safe Step 7300 Ca Cl they sell comes from China and can not attest to it being safe in aquariums. I find it at Ace and True Value hardware stores and Home Depot in season.

 

[mcarroll]

Dosing should be easy!

Definitely read all of Randy's articles on Reefkeeping.com - but that's a lot of reading and may take some experience to fully grok. Here's my nutshell in a nutshell version for newbs.

CaCl you can reliable dump in - just about in any quantity. In my 100 gallon system, I've dumped in 1 liter of BRS's Recipe 1 for adjustments a few times and had no issue.

Buffers are where you need to be careful - due to potential for pH changes, etc - drip slowly, and dilute the solution in the dripper if necessary and you won't have a problem. There should be minimal to no clouding where you're dripping. Increase water flow where you drip, slow the drip rate or increase the dilution (or all three) if you do get a lot of clouding.

To wit, I've dosed Brightwell as well as BRS Recipe 1 buffers up to 500mL per dose (daily is ~150mL) at the "same time" as my Ca Cl (again Brightwell or BRS). I made a dripper our of a Simply Orange* orange juice bottle (great size and form..plenty big and sits nicely on the corner of my sump) and I add about .5-1 liter of RO DI in with the dose to dilute it. I drip about as fast as possible, where the the buffer still drips, but does not stream. I just used an airline valve to control the flow. Been doing this for about 4 years now and never had an issue. Kent's doser is a decent commercial alternative that I've also used with good success.

Ditto the dosing regime above for Kalk. For a more automated method, I really like Tunze's 5074 kalk reactor and I use it with a standard Rio pump coupled to my Ultralife ATO system. It isolates the pump from the Kalk and is easy to maintain. I had my LFS order one for me. I also dose vinegar in the RO bucket and this will give a huge boost to the Ca and buffering output of the 5074. I have measured the effluent at about 100ppm Ca (Salifert) with just Kalk (4 Tsp) and about 200ppm with my typical vinegar load. Don't have the links handy anymore, but there's a ratio for vinegar:kalk that you'll want to dig up and stick to if your intention is not also to be dosing vinegar. (I do not.)

What you really want to avoid is cross contamination of your Ca and Buffer. I still don't know how it happened, but I once unknowingly had some Alk get into my CaCl and when I poured out a dose it was thick - almost pasty - and cloudy white. At the time, I was both sleepy and ignorant of the fact that this goo was basically liquid chalk and I dosed it anyway. I woke in the morning to find all my pumps (skimmer, return, etc) seized and even the siphon break holes in my return plumbing had become blocked with chalk. A serious mess if you can imagine all the ramifications. I lost some corals due to exposure to air, but miraculously my sump held the excess drain water - no flood. The meniscus was over the rim of the sump too.

With a little understand and knowing what to look for (all above) you should have no issues dosing -- it is not magic. ;-)

-Matt

* A little coincidental promo for them too....best orange juice I've ever had - by a wide margin. ;-)They use flavor packets. I like Uncle Matt's now (no relation) but their containers are not as good for making a dripper.

 

[Keira]

I got great help from articles!

 

[Aqua Craft]

2 Part + Mg

Mg flakes from Depot outlets are made for use in cement & paint. They all have varying amounts of ammonia and heavy metals.

If Mg flakes are not dead white or nearly translucent, they should be suspect. If Mg flakes are gray in color, they should not be used.

Mg flakes used in better marine salt brands (ACP grade) are not available to the general public. This form of Mg is milled or pulverized along with all other ingredients to produce a uniform particle size marine salt. Not all marine salt manufacturers mill all ingredients. This is evidenced by various size particles in the finished marine salt. These brands will suffer from particle separation from the time of manufacture and separate more during shipping and handling.

It is recommended that the users of Mg as a supplement be advised to use only specially selected grades of Mg.

With two part kits, calcium chloride is usually sold. There are various brands and purities of calcium chloride. Although most look similar (pellet form), all are not created equally. So called "food grade or USP" is misleading. We have samples of calcium chloride pellets that say "food grade". However on the same label it clearly indicates... "Not for use in food".

Any 2 part brand that offers "baking soda" as part #2 will raise alkalinity. However the use of baking soda has demonstrated to NOT allow the aquarium to reach the proper pH of 8.3 or 8.4. -- A 10% solution of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) has a pH of 8.05.

Thus the more baking soda that is added a salt water aquarium: 1) The proper pH cannot be reached or maintained. 2) Unwanted hair algae will develop as the carbonation ions will be out of balance.

It is recommended that each part of the "2 part system" be added separately.

 

[mcarroll]

IANAChemist, but I did learn this much when researching DIY calcium.

Food Grade is safe for use on food, but not in food. It is intended as brining salt. (Most of us probably don't know what brining really is although I'd bet all of us eat brined foods every day - Google it! ) At least in the USA, MSDS should indicate that the salt is to be dissolved in water before using which causes the problematic element (it wasn't completely clear, but I think this was some form of bromine) to precipitate. The precipitate (an extremely fine powder) is to be filtered out before use, yielding an acceptably pure calcium chloride solution.

There are basically two kinds of calcium chloride as far as we're concerned: plain mined calcium, and chemically produced calcium

If it's from the USA, pretty much all mined calcium chloride will have the same purity - a minor amount of bromide as appears in (e.g.) food grade calcium chloride. (Not all mines produce the same characteristic impurities, so if you're not in the US make sure you know your source.)

Chemically produced versions are (i'm told) a product of "the hydrochloric acid process" and are much more pure. The mined product from the USA used to be treated with that process and sold domestically, but imported product killed the economy for domestic production. (This was Dow Chemical, I think. Also think they have changed names since then.)

I have been using a mined-in-the-USA product intended as road salt for about six months. I do not filter the precipitate (never found a practical way - open to suggestions), I just don't let the doser draw from the very bottom of the reservoir, and throw "the dregs" out like I would a fine homebrewed beer. (Not that I even know that this residue would cause a problem in the reef...I suspect it would not. At the price, it's just too easy to err on the side of caution.)

I believe Tetra Chemicals is the main (maybe only) source for the product made by the hydrochloric acid process, but unless you want a large quantity (truck/train load) they won't be of help outside of providing information. They weren't even able to put me in touch with a distributor who could sell me a reasonable (<100lbs) quantity. This product isn't too hard to find for sale in smaller quantities online, but it's expensive. So expensive that honestly I would buy Brightwell's Calcion and Alkalin8.3 for their superior ingredients and comprehensive instructions, or any of the commercially availble two part mixes like classic ESV if I were going to worry about this at all and if budget weren't as heavy a factor as it is currently.

-Matt

 

[beaslbob]

I few years back I got calcium chloride that was tetra for $20 in 50 pound bags through an industrial chemical supplier.

I also go the anahydrous form (92-96% pure) cal-chlor? from a local redimix comany at $8 for a 25 pound bag. They felt sorry for me and simply didn't charge. LOL.

I also got magnesium chloride from an american company for like $30 from that same industrial supplier. They shipped it in on a truck but didn't charge for shipping. Brentag was the company here.

 

[mcarroll]

I few years back I got calcium chloride that was tetra for $20 in 50 pound bags through an industrial chemical supplier.

I also go the anahydrous form (92-96% pure) cal-chlor? from a local redimix comany at $8 for a 25 pound bag. They felt sorry for me and simply didn't charge. LOL.

I also got magnesium chloride from an american company for like $30 from that same industrial supplier. They shipped it in on a truck but didn't charge for shipping. Brentag was the company here.

At least one more potential source to try there, but hard to imagine free product and free shipping are too common even with them, eh? In researching I did run into a lot of one-off deals like this (was looking only for Calcium, myself) and people claiming to have found all/some of their DIY two part ingredients at big home stores or builder's supply outlets.

While it's possible someone else might find a source more easily, my advice to someone trying to start out bing DIY two-part would be to be prepared to call around a bit before you have any luck. I did not find nearly the success in finding DIY ingredients that old postings on big-name-which-shall-remain-nameless forum sites might lead someone to expect. I have found small containers of Driveway Heat for sale during one winter at one big home store, but really Buckeye Field Supply (online) is the only regular supplier for this I can name.* Every other source, including several I found claiming to offer the product and delivery, ultimately crapped out. Also, the shipping on a 5 gal container (from anywhere not just BFS) is substantial, so I didn't really even consider that an affordable source - YMMV, esp. on smaller quantities. I did finally find my 5 gal bucket for about $20 at a local wholesale club...but it was leftover stock from last winter. I'll be watching if they restock this winter. (This is also the best place I've found to buy Arm & Hammer if you need quantity.)

-Matt

* Bulk Reef Supply is an obvious alternative, but they have a similar price point and offer a technically different product. Not apples-apples and also not an inexpensive option for quantity (5 gal) purchases. (Still largely due to shipping, not lack of value or uncompetetive pricing...)

 

[Aqua Craft]

1) The MgCl from UT is NOT suitable for marine fish or reef aquariums. In fact, if you try to order truck loads (40,000#) and tell the order desk this will be used in making marine salts and/or for use in salt water aquariums, you will be turned away... Unless you sign a waver.

I have personally visited this factory several times. We have tested samples of this product for well over 15 years. It is only produced in a white color immediately after carbon contact reactors at the factory are replaced. MgCl produced one or two days after the carbon has been replaced is gray in color and always has various levels of ammonia. This form of MgCl is never pH consistent.

This product IS NOT sold to marine salt makers due the the very real possibility of liability. Get it.. wink-wink... law suit soon to follow.

There have been times when Las Vegas aquarium people have ordered this form of MgCl, however it is believed they fully understand the ramifications and sign a disclaimer against the factory/supplier.

2) RE: Ca" "As far as we are concerned...."???? There are various sources for CaCl2. It can be mined, man made or extracted from NSW.

We have tested Tetra brand CaCl and found it to be totally unacceptable for use in the manufacture of marine salts and selling as a Ca supplement (both in liquid & dry forms). When a strong concentrate solution is prepared, it develops with a red color. There are other brands of CaCl2 "pellets" that will not do this.

If you wish to cocorobrate this statement, contact Ozzie at SEAMIX, Ryan at BSR or MDP at Aqua Craft.

In the manufacture of artificial sea water / synthetic sea water / marine salts and/or additives (either laboratory formulated or sold as DIY), it is always best to utilize major ions that are individually extracted from natural sea water, vs mined or man made.

3) What I am seeing in this and other similar threads is an over riding theme of "cost". For some reason, too many people want to believe the hype and/or double talk on advertising and packaging. E.g. Can be used on food, but not in food..... Best for less, etc.

It must be understood "we all get what we pay for".

E.g. Low cost chemicals (Quasi-USP, tech, commercial, fertilizer grades) are loaded with impurities that can only be tested with the use of expensive laboratory procedure.

This is why these exact forms of MgCl and CaCl are found and best suited for sale at Ace & True Value.... for use other than marine aquarium use.

Q: Why gamble on the total cost of your aquarium hobby / investment with ultra low end / purity / cost components that cannot possibly compare with the proper grades of Mg or Ca?

4) Wouldn't it be best if Ca, Mg, K, So4 were individually extracted from NSW and processed specifically for use in manufacture of marine aquarium salts & additives?

We think so. This is exactly why each major component utilized in the manufacture of Aqua Craft Products marine salts and all liquid & dry supplements is made specifically for us, to our specifications.

If cost is the issue. If the cost of shipping is the issue. Consider what I had to tell someone in the mid 1970's when they whined about the cost of salt water.....

"If you cannot afford the water, you cannot afford the hobby".

The same goes today. A couple of weeks ago I watched a hobbyist at a decent retail shop go through the following exercise.

LFS> This aquarium is $650.00. Plus stand, external support equipment, etc.

Hobbyist> OK

LFS> This lighting system is $500.00

Hobbyist > OK

LFS> These corals are $450.00 to start.

Hobbyist> OK

LFS> This marine salt is 65.00.

Hobbist> Do you have anything cheaper.

Somewhere, somehow, people forgot that ALL of our salt water fish & corals came from the ocean. Wouldn't be best to use salt water, then perhaps additives that came from mother nature (the ocean), vs. some rubbish that is manufactured for use in paint or cement?

Look at all the threads where people all have sludge (serious residue) after mixing their favorite brand of marine salt. Look at all the threads where people ask about a brown or diatom algae bloom after a water change. -- None of this is natural. None of this acceptable. None of this will happen with better products. -- BUT.... items that produce these BOZO problems and results are... cheap.

I am not suggesting in anyway that all the people in the world use Aqua Craft Products (what a dream)... But I am openly saying... All of these types of threads on most marine aquarium web sites for the last decade have spawned a group of sellers that should not... should not be allowed to view, let alone touch or have anything to do with marine aquarium fish & reef keeping. -- They have generated a group of consumers that believe WACKO results is normal. -- It is not!

What exactly are the qualifications of a seller of bulk (lack of a better term) items? Their ability to sell improper goods at cheap prices?

Once again...... "If you cannot afford the water, you cannot afford the hobby". -- The same goes with DIY chemicals.

 

[mcarroll]

To AC's points:
1) UT yields bad Mg. Good to know. I'm not aware of any good DIY sources of Mag. Chloride. Anyone?
2) Thank you, but I confirmed to my own satisfaction that any Tetra product is generally unavailable - should be easy for most to avoid.
3) Regarding cost, your examples fail to address the very relevant difference of fixed and ongoing costs. I think most hobbyists, whether they think in those terms literally or not, have a firm grasp on the difference. Further, many people are heavily into DIY lighting to save money - particularly DIY LED's - just for another example. The hobby used to be astronomically expensive in all aspects - in many regards it still is. Thanks in large part to the spread of knowledge on forums like this, DIY lighting and chemistry - to say nothing of all the other DIY (stands, sumps, skimmers, etc) that have been built in the name of DIY and saving money - the hobby is a bit more affordable for those that have more time/ingenuity than money. This is good because in net it means more people in the hobby (than otherwise) despite the persistently bad economy.
4) I'm not sure it's been proven anywhere outside of Red Sea Fish Pharm that NSW-based ingredients are better in any way, has it? They have a lot invested in desalination infrastructure in their home country, so it makes a lot of sense from their perspective that they'd use and promote that resource - by-products of desalination - preferentially. Any "by products" business offsets some small amount of the enormous costs of operating one or more expensive desalination rigs. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a state-financed/sponsored institution there, in fact.

Personally, I am testing/corroborating others' experience in my own use of this DIY calcium product and figure that's enough for my own part. Nothing really new but my research for affordable CaCl2.

Generally, if people are honest with themselves - and this may be more to AC's point, and perhaps surprising to any super-cheap-o's in the crowd - commercial salts (Ca, etc) are often worth their additional cost, especially if one's tank is still low on the consumption curve. E.g. $10-$40 every few weeks or months for a couple of bottles of Brightwell or ESV (to name just some more commonly available ones) isn't very significant. Often less than $1/day...even a lot less. However, when you're going through four bottles a week or even more, then there's room for considering other options IMO. My experience is that no commercial suppliers to the hobby cut bulk discounts...perhaps if things were different.

I don't think it's news to most here, but just to make sure it's said: DIY chemistry is not for everyone. IMO, at least. Hopefully one doesn't have to get far into the prospect of DIY chemistry to realize that...
...some DIY chemicals are fairly dangerous and messy to handle,
...you get no helpful instructions (i.e. ..apply product to driveway...),
...the product's density and exact hydration level is hardly ever known, so one has to get experimental and a bit creative to tell what concentration is actually being mixed up (crucial if you want to use any of those nice dosing calculators on the internet) and
...yes, there is a little bit of mystery as to what the precipitate is, but that hasn't stopped a lot of people's success,
...and as I already said, one is not really going to save any significant money unless really dosing a lot of material.

It's worth pointing out that there are also commercial products in the hobby one can find fairly easily on the internet or on the LFS's shelves, usually priced at a premium level as the brand might suggest, but which are horribly labeled and practically impossible to use properly - regardless of ingredients or user experience level. "Buyer beware" is most definitely in effect even for hobby-targeted commercial brands, not just DIY products.

One last time....for all these reasons, and some of the ones stated in other postings - DIY chemistry is not for everyone.

I hope this helps!

-Matt

 

[goodtogo]

Great thread for 2 part additives.

 

[beaslbob]

Great thread for 2 part additives.

+1

(needed third character)