Electrostatic charge

[twilliard]

RHF you trouble maker! HA!

So will this come to an end?
Can't stand two people with 2 different knowledgeable talents arguing two different facts

 

[TrPPnN]

I'd like to think we got the best people from Germany over here... like Einstein and such... And the technological advances did stem from Americans and the Germans then given to the Japanese, first... then when Japan invaded China, since they had more natural resources and manpower during WWII, the Japanese taught the Chinese how to manufacture...

There's just a lot of validity to what various people from various educational backgrounds to negate with a statement of "it's not valid".

If there is proof of something not being scientifically proven... why not understand what they are trying to accomplish and tear it apart from that vantage point?

15 years ago anything made in China was laughed at... Today, it's become the commodity central of everything in commerce and accepted...

Hopefully we can still prove why we were the WorldWar Champions back to back... LOL

Not disagreeing to disagree... just wanting to show what I think these guys at ReefToys.com are trying to accomplish...

And honestly... much regards to RHF...

 

[TrPPnN]

Well then I will agree to disagree then, Twilliard

 

[Cory]

If it comes with a money back guarantee id try it. Dont worry becaise if it works, it will sell despite any disagreements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Static Electricity in Flowing Fluids...
http://www.shimadzu.com/an/hplc/support/lib/lctalk/14/14lab.html

How to produce Static Electricity with Flowing Water...
http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/how-to-produce-static-electricity-with-water.html

Static Electricity is too small to make an impact? No... differential Voltage or the delta V between the charge and earth ground may be on the order of KV or kilovolts.
http://amasci.com/emotor/stmiscon.html

Did you read your own links? It noted they could generate a static charge with DI water because DI water is a good insulator. Seawater is not.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just saying, there is some validity to this Reeftoys.com gadget...

Just because we don't understand it all doesn't make us stupid... rather, there is sooo much out there that we don't know that we haven't incorporated into reefing that we are actually falling behind the Germans and other nations in this reefing and aquatic hobby...
In the grand scheme of things, I personally would like to see continued advances in the hobby... even if it means having to try something new...

IMO, I do understand it and it doesn't work for the reasons claimed. I don't think I ever said I didn't understand it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@acidtablockshifty
http://www.watertechonline.com/disinfection/effects-of-silver-in-water/

Using Silver to Preserve Water

Improperly stored water quickly grows bacteria, which may have effects ranging from unpleasant to life threatening. In the industrialized nations, our digestive tracts have grown accustomed to water sources free of harmful bacteria. As a result, most of us do not have built-in immunities to common local bacteria, which quickly reproduce in untreated stagnant reservoirs. Many a traveler to Mexico has suffered a bout of Montezuma's revenge, often introduced through seemingly harmless ice cubes made from the local water.

The ancients knew about the antibacterial properties of silver. Alexander the Great used silver urns to store water for his troops on extended sea journeys. The ancients didn't know anything about bacteria, but they knew that drinking “old water” could make them sick, unless it was stored with silver. Solid silver will not usually disinfect water, but putting some of grandma's old silverware or some silver jewelry into a storage container is a good way to prevent the growth of potentially harmful bacteria over long periods of time. The silver introduces metal ions into the water that ****** or prohibit bacterial growth. Katadyn makes a variety of commercial silver nitrate products (tradename Micropur) for preserving stored water with silver. There are several nonsilver water preservatives, such as “Aerobic 07,” for preventing bacterial growth in long-term stored containers of water. See preparedness/survival and surplus stores for these products. Silver-based water purification products are available in Europe, but these are not approved for use in the United States.

You can make your own colloidal silver solution for preserving your water if you have a colloidal silver generator (see chapter 9). The Environmental Protection Agency has set a limit for the silver introduced into drinking water by bacteriostatic silver-impregnated filters at 50 micrograms per liter (equal to 0.05 parts per million). At this level of silver concentration, several different tests have indicated that silver is only partially effective over periods of time (greater than one hour) against certain bacteria and has little effect against viruses. To obtain these concentrations, you would dilute a 5 part per million (PPM) colloidal silver solution 100:1 with the water to be preserved.

It is well known and accepted that silver has anti-microbial properties. I'm not sure why you would want to randomly kill off bacteria, but there are many technologies to accomplish this if it is a goal.

 

[acidtablockshifty]

i know i was joking, maybe using something like this attached to pump in an ato reservoir would be more beneficial then operating in the system just my thoughts after reading all this. my only other thought on this is that ( and dont qoute me as my info is from an episode of csi) but humans exposed to heavy metal will develop visible rings or moons on finger nails, so my thoughts are boom fingernails grow faster as result of the body trying to get rid of the toxins or use them in such a way as to remove them, so adding silver to the tank would just essentially be adding a trace element that could possibly help corals grow maybe or spark them to grow faster. the static electricity is just a way of getting the silver depleted more efficiently, which actually would be more efficient in fresh water, the device then just acts as a time release so the system only gets very small trace amounts as that is what its adding trace. At the same time if it was in an ato then you would have the added benefit of non stagnant water and the silver anti bacterial? aspect of your stored water. A new final stage of ro/di system

 

[TrPPnN]

Only putrefying bacteria are affected adversely, Randy. The nitrifying bacteria (aerobic) are not affected significantly.

Never said you didn't understand it, Randy, I was talking about our hobby in general. People follow without question to your suggestions. At times, blind faith.

The bacteria used in our systems are the same ones found in use at waste water/water treatment facilities... how microbe lift got their start.

In regards to the dielectric properties of air within a liquid, and adjacent to piping (pvc being non conductive) you do build up a charge, significant enough to create a voltage differential.
And yes, I quoted the links to show that liquids regardless of pre conceived notions that DI cannot conduct electricity, can STILL be a source of the generation... if that's the case, then wouldn't the overall effect of flowing saltwater also generate a static field and a voltage differential that would justify having a grounding probe in our systems?

Sorry, just thinking outside of the reefing box and trying to objectively figure out how their gadget is trying to work.... just kinda intrigues the hell outta me why they put it together as they did. Must be a reason why they spent a ton of money on silver and incorporated it into the design if all it's supposed to do is aspirate water with coarsely mixed bubbles via a venturi... lol

Just curious as heck... once again, trying to be objective in this device.

Cheers!!

 

[tyeight]

What a great read. I'm always trying to understand a new way and direction for the hobby. When I started in the hobby it was 1977 and we were making canister filters out of pvc and now look the changes. The industry has changed so much it's like going from a model T to a Mercedes with park assist. lol!!! Let all keep an open mind. An industry that does not challenge itself becomes a dead and forgotten hobby. So applauded attempts of making this thing we love so much.... Better. And yes let's make known those who attempt to defraud us but not before we fully research this new thing called "automobile or telephone or television or. I think you get what I mean..... Keep it coming !!!!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Only putrefying bacteria are affected adversely, Randy. The nitrifying bacteria (aerobic) are not affected significantly.

Silver is known to be a broad spectrum antimicrobial that kills many aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. However, I'm not sure why you'd want to specifically kill putrifying bacteria (those that break down organics such as proteins) in a reef aquarium. I don't think I would want to.

Silver is known in the scientific literature to be a wide spectrum, nonspecic agent for killing bacteria.

Here's study from 2013. I've put in red parts that might be of interest here:

J Altern Complement Med. 2013 Mar;19(3):224-31. doi: 10.1089/acm.2011.0681. Epub 2012 Sep 27.
Spectrum of antimicrobial activity associated with ionic colloidal silver.
Morrill K1, May K, Leek D, Langland N, Jeane LD, Ventura J, Skubisz C, Scherer S, Lopez E, Crocker E, Peters R, Oertle J, Nguyen K, Just S, Orian M,Humphrey M, Payne D, Jacobs B, Waters R, Langland J.
Author information

Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
Silver has historically and extensively been used as a broad-spectrum antimicrobial agent. However, the Food and Drug Administration currently does not recognize colloidal silver as a safe and effective antimicrobial agent. The goal of this study was to further evaluate the antimicrobial efficacy of colloidal silver.

DESIGN:
Several strains of bacteria, fungi, and viruses were grown under multicycle growth conditions in the presence or absence of ionic colloidal silver in order to assess the antimicrobial activity.

RESULTS:
For bacteria grown under aerobic or anaerobic conditions, significant growth inhibition was observed, although multiple treatments were typically required. For fungal cultures, the effects of ionic colloidal silver varied significantly between different genera. No viral growth inhibition was observed with any strains tested.

CONCLUSIONS:
The study data support ionic colloidal silver as a broad-spectrum antimicrobial agent against aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, while having a more limited and specific spectrum of activity against fungi.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

to the tank would just essentially be adding a trace element that could possibly help corals grow maybe or spark them to grow faster. the static electricity is just a way of getting the silver depleted more efficiently,

But there isn't any static electricity present at a silver/seawater interface. There cannot be. Static electricity does not form between 2 conductors. It just dissipates. One of the pair must be an insulator.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just curious as heck... once again, trying to be objective in this device.

Since you brought it up, are you truly objective? You are stating for the record that you have no connection whatsoever to Reef Toys or Slawomir Krzyzanowski ?

Have you met with him? Communicated online? Helped found the company? Advised in any way?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The industry has changed so much it's like going from a model T to a Mercedes with park assist. lol!!! Let all keep an open mind. An industry that does not challenge itself becomes a dead and forgotten hobby. !

FWIW, I have a very open mind to new inventions. It's the marketing explanations in this case that are not valid. Not all claims should be accepted at face value.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Must be a reason why they spent a ton of money on silver and incorporated it into the design if all it's supposed to do is aspirate water with coarsely mixed bubbles via a venturi... lol

A ton of money? Silver is not expensive. A gram of silver costs 50 cents , while this device retails for $169.

 

[Amoo]

 

[TrPPnN]

Who the heck is Slawomir Krzyzanowski?

I think you're taking this a bit personal Randy... ease up dude... I saw Electric Charge in the title... and thought I'd give it a read being that I am and Electrical Engineer.
Then I read what you guys linked to this thread, and I said that the concepts are valid... not the design...

I see an attempt at making something out of nothing... bold claims, yeah... maybe... far fetched?

Just saying the concepts would be novel... not that it works... LOL I haven't used it as of yet... but I'm curious...

Maybe the explanation is not 100% correct... but neither is every explanation in the reefing hobby!

I've seen broad claims of full spectrum in this hobby for lighting which fall short consistently! That's one of my peeves...

Accusations from a well respected person is this hobby is the last thing I'd expect from another academic...

I've extremely tired of hearing that there is "my way or the highway" method to reefing... pretty exhausting picking through comments that just bash a product without tests, without data, without any real significant claims than "I don't think it works"... (Opinionated)

This is a thread for open discussion where we all can learn... correct?

With all due respect, sir, please do not take my position (devils advocate) as an attack on you. You are respected and people look up to you.

To me it's academic bantering...

 

[twilliard]

Lol like two kids in a candy store!
One complains of flavor while the other complains of ingredients lol

 

[TrPPnN]

For the cost of things, you forget manufacturing, overhead, design and implementation costs... oh yeah... and marketing...
If this hobby was based solely on cost of materials, a bucket of 200 gallon salt mix would only cost about $13. No processing...
FWIW.

Based on your expertise, why are the concepts wrong... why are the designs wrong... and why are there tons of articles written about static electricity and fluids through non grounded pipes, especially PVC and Plastics (regardless of fluid makeup) and OSHA regulations protecting from such?

http://www.srbrowne.com/booklet/page01.html


This is an example of fluid static buildup... in this case, Lubricating Oils... :

Electrostatic charge generation occurs in fluid systems as a result of friction between the fluid and system components. The magnitude of charge depends on many interrelated factors, including the environment. Charges can occur during filtration of hydraulic and lubricating fluids as well as diesel and gasoline fuels. This effect manifests itself in several ways, the most obvious being an audible noise (clicking sound) as discharge of electrostatic charge accumulation causes sparking internally within the system. Less apparent effects involve migration of the electrical charge downstream of the filter when the charge dissipates by discharging itself to a grounded surface.

This article discusses the mechanisms of electrostatic charge generation, and the factors that influence both the generation and dissipation of the charge.

Electrostatic Charge Generation in Liquid Systems Electrostatic charge is generated in a number of ways whenever there is friction between two bodies moving relative to one another. Charge generation occurs in liquid systems on the molecular level at the interface of any two unlike materials, so a static charge will be generated in any moving fluid, with positive or negative charges moving from the fluid onto the bounding surface. The causes of electrostatic charging include the following examples:

• Friction caused by fluid flowing in pipes
  
  
• High fluid velocities
  
  
• Fluids flowing in ungrounded pipes and hoses
  
  
• Passage of fluids through filter elements or other microporous structures
  
  
• Generated by turbulence in the liquids and by pumping elements, especially centrifugal pumps
  
  
• Fluid discharging on to the free surface of the reservoir
  
  
• When free air is present in the liquid, for example, in bearing and paper machine return lines
  
  
• Imparted into the liquid when component surfaces sliding is relative to one another
  

Fluid acquires a charge when it flows through a pipe or microporous structure, and when this charge is carried downstream, it’s called a streaming current (Figure 1).

Figure 1. Streaming Current

In pipeline flow, the streaming current will be discharged back to the pipe walls, reservoir or component surfaces, and the discharge rate is controlled by the characteristics of the fluid and its additives. This charge relaxation is described by the equations below:

where:

Qt = charge at time t

Qo = initial charge

t = charge relaxation time constant (representing 37 percent charge decay)

E = dielectric constant of liquid (approximately 2 for oils)

E0 = absolute dielectric constant of a vacuum (8.854 x 10 - 12 F/m)

K = fluid rest conductivity (pS/m)

If the component walls are conductive, then a charge will be induced on the walls, which is of opposite polarity to the fluid. If the exterior surface is grounded, the net charge will be zero. If not, the charge will accumulate to eventually discharge. This will generate an electrostatic discharge where the charge discharges to a surface at lower voltage. In doing so, it can generate a high-energy spark. If the discharge occurs in air, the results can be both spectacular and potentially harmful (Figure 2).

Electrostatic discharge usually manifests itself as a clicking sound as charge repeatedly increases and discharges to surfaces of lower voltage (usually earth or ground) through sparking. The clicking frequency depends on the charging rate. Clearly, if the discharge occurs in a flammable atmosphere the effect can be serious, but these instances are rare. A discharge within the system is usually short-lived and extinguished by the hydraulic fluid. This can result in etching of the discharged surface, perhaps removing microscopic particles and leaving carbon deposits on the surface. There is also evidence that localized discharge can result from lubricated surfaces, especially in geared and bearing systems with a high air content. This can contribute to pitting of surfaces.

Charging in Hydrocarbon Filtration Many investigators have studied electrostatic charge generation during filtration of liquid hydrocarbons. The charge generated may be either positive or negative, depending on the fixed charge of the filter material and the fluid used. Due to the relatively low conductivity of hydrocarbon liquids, these charges are carried downstream and accumulate without immediate discharge. The amount of charge generated by the flow of a hydrocarbon liquid and filtration is related to several fluid and filter properties. Charge generation typically strengthens with increasing flow, reducing fluid conductivity, with certain additive packages and with increasing viscosity. Charge accumulation increases with lower fluid conductivity, lower temperatures and higher viscosities. In the filter housing, the charge of the filter will be opposite in sign to that of the fluid, and the charges induced on the system will be opposite accordingly. The charge on the fluid will be transmitted downstream, and if enough charge is accumulated, the fluid can discharge to a conductive part of the filtration system that is potentially lower in magnitude, therefore damaging that part of the system. The extent of damage depends on the material involved.

If the filter is made of nonconductive material, it will acquire a charge when the fluid charges. The charge will not be able to dissipate or relax into the filtration system due to the high resistivity of the material. The filter will act as a capacitor and charge until the voltage is great enough to overcome the gap and discharge to a lower potential. If the filter is charged with a high enough voltage, it can discharge to the metal parts of the filter assembly housing, causing surface damage to the housing, burn marks and other damage to the filter element. A clicking or rattling sound in the filter housing caused by sparking indicates this cycle of charging and discharging.

In many cases, the filtration system, including the piping, reservoir and filter housing is grounded to alleviate the dangers of static charge buildup. Using a grounded system prevents the sparking of the system to nearby conductors; however, grounding the system will not prevent the charging of the filter material or fluid, nor will it accelerate the process of discharge.

Various attempts have been made to alleviate the potential of static charge accumulation in filtration systems, namely:

• Use an antistatic additive. Such additives will increase the fluid conductivity, thereby accelerating the rate of charge relaxation. Antistatic additives have been successfully used for a long time in fuel systems but have not been approved by oil manufacturers for use in hydraulic and lube systems. Additives on the market are intended for fuel systems.
  
  
• Reduce the charge exiting the filter by adding a conductive mesh downstream of the filter material which discharges some of the filter material’s charge. However, not all of the fluid’s charge is discharged because the mesh opening cannot be too small or it will restrict the flow.
  
  
• Reduce the flow density in the filter material by increasing the filter size. This will reduce the charge generated, as it is a function of flow density, and is perhaps the easiest of these options. However, it is not practical in all cases.
  
  
• Increase the time for the charge to decay. This will necessitate an increase in the time between successive charge generators by additional piping or increase the overall system time constant using an extra reservoir. This is an effective but costly solution.
  

Influence of Fluid Conductivity As in the discussion regarding charge decay, it is noted that the decay time depends mostly on the conductivity of the fluid. Industrial lube oils are usually highly refined oils with a low concentration of additives, and as a result, generally have low conductivities. Hydraulic oils, on the other hand, traditionally have a high conductivity due to the use of metallic-based additives like zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP), so that charge carried by the oil is generally dissipated as it passes around the system. The accumulated charge generally remains at a level where discharge is not experienced.

Environmental concerns have stimulated developments in both oils and filters. The concern about oil leakage has resulted in the increased use of synthetic oils and those having nonmetallic antiwear additives, usually based upon sulfur-phosphorous chemistry. These oils can have low conductivities, with some lower than insulating oils used in transformers and switch gears as seen in Table 1. The lower conductivity means that the charge generated may not be dissipated sufficiently, increasing the accumulated charge level and hence the likelihood of discharge.

Oil Type K (pS/m) Oil Type K (pS/m)
Lube Oils Hydraulic Oils
Steam turbine 13 Aircraft (MIL-PRF-5606) 29
Gas turbine PAO 1,200 Industrial phosphate ester >2,000
Gas turbine diester 1,500 Aircraft phosphate ester >2,000
SAE 10W 40 >2,000 Industrial (Z-P based) 250
Transmission >2,000 Synthetic 9
Paper machine (Z-P based) 350 Aircraft PAO 70
Paper machine (S-P based) 10
Others Others
Cooling (silicate ester) 1,500 Insulating 12
Table 1. Examples of Conductivity of Oils at 23°C

As a comparison, for aviation fuels, ASTM D4865 provides recommended limits on conductivity to prevent any chance of spark ignition. As an example, some military specifications require a fuel conductivity of 100 to 700 pS/m.

Filter elements are being made so that they are more easily disposed of by crushing and incineration and without the need for metal streaming, as the supporting core/shroud is contained within the housing and not the element. This has meant an increased use of polymers in filters and can result in a higher accumulated charge. The combination of lower conductivity and higher accumulated charge has resulted in an increase in static discharge, namely a clicking noise as the charge discharges to the metal surfaces downstream of the filtration medium and burn marks on the plastic end caps and downstream polymeric drainage mesh.

It was the increased static discharge activity that prompted Pall Corporation to investigate the subject and conduct research on filter materials that would result in a lower charge. This development will be discussed in an upcoming issue of Practicing Oil Analysis magazine.

References

1. Huber, P. and Sonin, A. “Theory of Charging in Liquid Hydrocarbon Fluids.” J. Colloid Interface Sci. 61, 109, (1977).
2. Bensch, L. “Controlling Static Charge Effects with the Multi-Pass Test Through the Use Of an Alternative Fluid.” Presented to ISO TC131/SC8/WG9, (May 1993).
3. Solomon, T. "Harmful Effects of Electrostatic Charges on Machinery and Lubricating Oils.” Institute of Petroleum, London, UK, (March 1959).
4. Leonard, J. and Carhart, H. “Effect of Conductivity on Charge Generation in Hydrocarbon Fuels Flowing through Fiber Glass Filters.” J. Colloid Interface Sci. 32, 383, (1970).
5. Huber, P. and Sonin, A. “Electric Charging in Liquid Hydrocarbon Filtration: A Comparison of Theory and Experiments.” J. Colloid Interface Sci. 61, 126, (1977).
6. Bustin, W.. and Dukek, W. Electrostatic Hazards in the Petroleum Industry. Research Studies Press Ltd., England , (1983).
7. ASTM D4865-91. "Standard Guide for Generation and Dissipation of Static Electricity in Petroleum Fuel Systems." American Society for Testing and Materials, (1991).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Who the heck is Slawomir Krzyzanowski?

I think you're taking this a bit personal Randy... ease up dude... I saw Electric Charge in the title... and thought I'd give it a read being that I am and Electrical Engineer.
Then I read what you guys linked to this thread, and I said that the concepts are valid... not the design...

I see an attempt at making something out of nothing... bold claims, yeah... maybe... far fetched?

Just saying the concepts would be novel... not that it works... LOL I haven't used it as of yet... but I'm curious...

Maybe the explanation is not 100% correct... but neither is every explanation in the reefing hobby!

I've seen broad claims of full spectrum in this hobby for lighting which fall short consistently! That's one of my peeves...

Accusations from a well respected person is this hobby is the last thing I'd expect from another academic...

I've extremely tired of hearing that there is "my way or the highway" method to reefing... pretty exhausting picking through comments that just bash a product without tests, without data, without any real significant claims than "I don't think it works"... (Opinionated)

This is a thread for open discussion where we all can learn... correct?

With all due respect, sir, please do not take my position (devils advocate) as an attack on you. You are respected and people look up to you.

To me it's academic bantering...

I'm not taking it personally. But as moderator of this forum it is my obligation to make sure there's no violation of the rules, and since some of the things you have said seem unusually close to the quite unusual (and incorrect) claims stated on the Reef Toys web site, I just wanted to be sure you have no involvement with them. Assuming you do not, you can say whatever you want about the technology, within the confines of the R2R user agreement.