Going fallow and QT'ing all fish Questions

[Cjud7982]

Well, I have been learning this hobby for the last few years and I have just recently upgraded to a 180 gallon tank at the beginning of this year. I bleached, and vinegar bathed the rock then cured it for several months prior to set up. New dry sand. All of my fished seemed to be healthy and fine in my old system, and up until recently.

Quick background story on my only qt experience.
I was ignorant when I purchased some of my first fish and trusted my lfs and I did not treat or qt any of my livestock. I learned that this is a huge no no in the hobby as soon as I had my first fish get sick. It was a copper banded butterfly that was perfect in the store, eating and everything. Brought him home and was the first fish that I did a QT process on. He stopped eating soon after being in the qt tank and developed lymph, at least that what I diagnosed him with. I tried a few products, with out understanding truly what each medication did out of panic. Looking back now, its obvious why he didnt make it. Between the multiple dips, possible ammonia spikes, mis treating with furan-2 and methylene blue. Bottom of the line, I felt horrible about it and blamed my stupidity for the loss of the fish, even though I was just trying to do the right thing. This led me to feel that I did something wrong and maybe I should just leave the dipping, and treatments to my lfs. So I tore my qt tank down and put it in storage...

Bringing me up to recently,
All of my fish have been super healthy and happy in their new tank with all of the new room. I have always loved tangs, currently have a yellow, purple, and bristletooth, and most recently attempted a powder brown. Which is where the trouble starts...After, plently of research, I made the mistake of trying my luck against the ich odds. I had my lfs order me a powder brown, treat it, and keep it for a few weeks to make sure he was healthy. All passed, looked good, and he ate well. So I bring him home, terrified as heck of my quarantining skills, I felt that he had the best chance with just a drip acclimation and in the dt he goes. He looked great for a week or so, always eating and swimming well. Then the true colors of powder browns come out and the symptoms of ich start showing up. I was torn on if I should react immediately or let him get used to his new home. Next day all looked well, no spots, no scratching. That night, bam, white spots everywhere. I decided immediate action was needed so I stayed up late and set up my qt tank. I did not pull him that night because I wanted to make sure the qt stabilized. The next morning he was dead and stuck to a power head. After research I am now worried with how fast it happened it might be marine velvet.

Now today,
I have all of my fish currently out of the tank. Phwew what a disaster, but all corals are ok and the display is now fallow. My current stock list are all in the same qt tank currently (I only have one spare tank currently) I am very afraid is too small, even for just a qt tank. It's a standard 29 gallon. 1 purple tang, 1 yellow tang, 1 bristletooth, (all tangs are less than 3 inches) pair of oscillaris (still small), 1 blue spotted puffer, 1 bi color angle(around 3 inches), 1 royal dottyback, and 1 blue velvet damsel(still very small). I think I will be returning the dottyback and velvet damsel back to my lfs after this qt process because they are bullies. I currently have 2 hob filters, and I have placed a 4"x4" piece of my cured bio brick in the tank to help keep ammonia down for now until I start treatments. I have a 55 gallon mixing station setup, so I am prepared to as many water changes as required. I did perform a 5 minute freshwater/methylene blue dip on my tangs prior to entering the qt because they were showing some signs of a ectoparasites. I am currently dosing 3 capfuls of paraguard daily in the qt because that is all I have on hand. They all look better and eating well, thankfully.

So, question time I suppose.
1) Should I assume that both ich and velvet are present and treated accordingly? If so, a therapeutic level of copper is required for treatment of velvet and ich, or hyposalinity for just ich that is less stressful on the fish. From my readings.
2) I have looked at some of the species and treatment charts on here and it says to absolutely not treat the puffer with copper, so how do I ensure that he is treated and parasite free? this may apply to my bi color angle as well.
3) If I use copper (I ordered cuprion from brightwell and a salifert test kit that will be here friday, if I need to go copper that is) should I bring copper up to .2ppm over 48 hours to attack the potential velvet, or slowly acclimate the fish to the copper and target the ich?
4) While I am qt'ing the fish, should I be proactive and treat for other diseases or infections?

Any other advice here would be greatly appreciated. I have been beating myself up for allowing this to happen and want to make sure that everything I do from here forward is good for my little fishies. I honestly have learned my lesson the hard way, this seems to be a repeating life problem unfortunatly... :/ I keep researching and reading trying to understand these diseases and proper treatments, but I feel that this situation may need a little bit of situational finesse and advice from more experienced reefers like yuo guys. I am absolutely going at least the 76 day fallow period on my display as well as how ever long I need for properly QT my fish. I will keep reading, I am determined to learn as much as I can about this. I promise that I will be QT'ing all new fish coming into my possession, no matter what. Lesson learned.

 

[Humblefish]

Answers:

1) Yes, treat with Coppersafe @ 1.5 - 2.0 ppm for 4 weeks. More info here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/

2) Best treatment option for those two species is CP: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

But there is a decent chance both will be able to survive 30 days of Coppersafe.

3) You have 48 hrs to bring the Cu level up to minimum therapeutic when dealing with Marine Velvet Disease. This sticky provides exact dosing info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/proper-dosing-of-coppersafe.309726/

4) Following this protocol will yield the highest survival rate when dealing with velvet: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

 

[Cjud7982]

Thank you for the response, I have read through those pages before and just read through them again. I see you recommend using coppersafe instead of cuprion or cupramine. I will try and pick a Ali test kit and copper safe instead...

Unfortunately I came downstairs this morning and my bi color angle was laying on his side breathing very heavy. His fins looked pretty teathered as well. I immediately checked my ammonia, and it registered less than .20 ppm. I dose a small amount of prime and dos a 10 gallon water change. Also I pulled the Angel out and put him in a sterile fresh mix of saltwater. Unfortunately he had just died... I am posting a picture of his face to see if anyone can point me in the direction of why caused this. It looks like there are super tiny black specks covering mostly his face. I am thinking some sort of bacteria infection or maybe a bad reaction to the paraguard? Any input is greatly appreciated

 

[Humblefish]

@Cjud7982 ANY ammonia is bad. It burns the fish's gills and if left unchecked can damage a fish’s gills, liver and kidneys.

Do the black specks on the face look anything like this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/black-ich-turbellarians.259912/

 

[Maritimer]

Also, be aware that once you've got copper in the water, Prime is no longer your friend ... it'll make copper much more toxic. Water changes, however, can be very good for your fish, your ammonia levels, a host of things. Do remember to dose copper into your water-change water _before_ adding it to your QT, so that the copper level never drops below therapeutic, even for a moment.

~Bruce

 

[Cjud7982]

@Humblefish , I am certainly aware of the dangers of ammonia to fish and am doing everything I can to prevent any ammonia from rising, this is the first time in the hobby that I have ever had an ammonia spike with fish in the tank (to my knowledge at least). The first night with all of the fish in qt must have caused a spike, (should have assumed this) which is what I think hurt my angel. Because of this, I performed a 5 gallon water change earlier in the day after the angel didnt make it, and another 10 gallon tonight after I let the fish eat in the tank. I vacuumed as much of the leftover food as possible. So all together a little over a 50% water change during today. I am testing ammonia at least twice a day and if I see any signs of it I am changing water. I am trying to do them a little while before bed time so that they have the best possible water though out the night, when I cannot observe them, and check ammonia in the morning. Also, the black spots on the angel were much much smaller than any of the pictures in the link posted. I am thinking that the scales were damaged from the fish laying on his side and against the airstone I have in the tank. Thank you for your help.

@Maritimer Thank you for the heads up with the prime and the copper treatment. I will be sure to keep that put away while the copper is in the tank. My copper is arriving tomorrow night in the mail so I am planning on beginning treatment asap. Should I do another large water change prior to starting copper to remove any remains of the prime and paraguard from today? Also, the copper that was easiest and quickest for me to get with a test kit was cuprion and a salifert test. From my reading, the therapeutic levels should be between .20 and .30 ppm for 30 days. The observe for 4 weeks. Would you be able to confirm that? I am planning on mixing up a solution of copper in a 1 gallon container so that I can add the dosing over 48 hours to get to around .25 ppm. As for water changes, thank you for your recommendation to add the copper to my water change prior to refilling the tank. The ppm of copper in the new water change should exactly match the ppm of copper in the tank, correct? Also, should feeding remain as normal, or should I be offering more to ensure their diet during treatment?

Lastly, my yellow tang is currently showing spots of ich as of early today and my purple has a few on his tail. Is it correct that it can take up to 7 days for them to fall off the fish to where they are able to be treated/killed by the copper? If so, should I wait until I see them fall off to start treatment to reduce stress on the fish while the parasites are attached? The rest of the fish show no signs.

Sorry for the long windedness, I am super stressed about this situation. I have already lost 2 fish in the last 3 days and the rest of my fish are all in the same qt tank. I just want to be sure I am doing the right thing.

 

[Humblefish]

I am testing ammonia at least twice a day and if I see any signs of it I am changing water.

Just a heads up... Once you start dosing copper in the water, most ammonia test kits will yield false positives. So you will have to rely upon a Seachem ammonia alert badge: http://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php

 

[Maritimer]

From my reading, the therapeutic levels should be between .20 and .30 ppm for 30 days. The observe for 4 weeks. Would you be able to confirm that?

I believe that to be correct, though it's long and long since I've used the Brightwell product. (I love fairy wrasses, and they didn't tolerate it well for me.)

Ich on the fish will be unaffected by the copper, and even once it drops off, it may well be able to encyst successfully. Copper (along with CP) is most effective in targeting the theronts - the stage that bursts from the cysts to hunt your fish.

~Bruce

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree with what’s been said, you had velvet based on how fast the spots vanished and reappeared en masse. Also, I haven’t found angels to be sensitive to copper at all, but they are VERY sensitive to any ammonia at all. Minuscule levels can dust them fast.

I also echo the sentiments of prime toxicity with copper and the necessity of a Seachem ammonia alert badge.

Sorry for your loss

Here’s some more reading on why not to rely on LFS for quarantine:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/lfs-fish-“treatment”-the-“sudden”-need-for-quarantine.308/

 

[Cjud7982]

@4FordFamily and @Maritimer Thank you so much for your input and help. My stuff finally was in today and my ammonia levels were good in the hospital tank. I did receive a seachem ammonia badge and hung that inside of my quarantine. I will be keeping a very close eye on that throughout this process. I did some more research and felt that it would be best and safest for my blue spotted puffer to not go through the copper treatment so I got a new 10 gallon setup going and isolated him today. I have been adding microbacteria 7 in both hospital tanks to keep up the beneficial bacteria levels. I removed the bio brick from the primary hospital tank, as well as much carbon from the filter pads in the HOB filters to minimize any copper absorption. Meanwhile, I aerated and matched a new 5 gallon mix of water to create the concentrated copper solution for adding to the hospital tank. My target ppm is .25, and my tank volume is approx 27 gallons. I figured around 32 drops of cuprion in the 5 gallon bucket would yield close to the target of .25ppm in the tank once it all is in. Less any water changes, so this should be on the conservative side. I have the salifert test kit and testing copper levels after every dosing of the copper solution/water changes. boy that test is difficult to decipher the colors, but I believe that I am near .10ppm right now of copper. I plan on dosing again tomorrow morning and tomorrow night. I would like to be at the target of .25 within 48 hours to target the velvet. Please let me know if any of this seems wrong or something else that I am missing. I am a little worried that my first round of adding the solution was a little faster than I would have liked, but all the fish are doing ok as of now. They do seem to be swimming a little more erratic though. Is this normal when first starting treatment?

As for the puffer fish. I contacted a friend that is a vet technician and worked out a way for them to get me a prescription for chloroquine phosphate. I am not sure how much people generally order, but I requested 30 grams so I would have plenty on hand. I still need to learn the best methods and doses for this treatment. But I think that this is the safest method for treating puffers if I am reading correctly. and also a backup plan if the copper doesn't go well.

If the copper method proves to be too difficult on the main hospital tank, would changing over to cp be just as effective after attempting a copper treatment?

 

[Cjud7982]

btw, thank you @4FordFamily for the article. That all makes perfect sense and honestly makes me feel dumb, unfortunately, for thinking that the lfs had some magical practice that made the fish all perfectly healthy. But because of this, I will be following practices from threads and stickies on here, as well as stocking up on my medications for quarantining and emergencies. I am trying to learn this stuff and take this as serious as I can for the sake of the animals that have survived the traumatic journey around the globe to land in my living room.

 

[recreative]

I am trying to learn this stuff and take this as serious as I can for the sake of the animals that have survived the traumatic journey around the globe to land in my living room.

Perfect. I had my own rude awakening this week . . . qt is being formed.

Will follow your progress, good luck.

 

[Cjud7982]

awe geesh, thats not good news. I am sorry to hear. well you found the right place for help and I wish you luck with your qt process.

Real quick. I am new to reading these copper test kits. Can someone confirm what they think this level is. It just so hard with shadows, and above indoor lighting. I am pretty sure what I think it is, just looking for a second opinion. I am just hoping the dosing isnt too abrupt for the fish. I started dosing yesterday around noon and just added the third dosing a little while ago.

 

[Humblefish]

Looks like 0.25 to me, but can you take another photo outside? Under natural light?

 

[Cjud7982]

Looks like 0.25 to me, but can you take another photo outside? Under natural light?

That is what I was thinking. It was night time when I tested the sample and will be testing again here shortly after a 50 percent water change. My alert badge started to show a small amount of green under the .o2ppm of free ammonia this morning. I will try and get a picture of the next sample under natural light outside today and put it up here. thank you. btw, all the fish seem happy and eating well. It looks like the parasites began dropping off on Friday and Saturday too. So on to the next part of the ich life cycle. Do the parasites usually drop off all the fish at the same time, or is it independent and multiple stages of the life cycle constantly occurring? ie some fish drop them and another one is just getting them or still has them

Is it ok for me to add microbacteria7 to the qt will copper treatment to help keep the bacteria up? My ammonia seems to keep reappearing after about 2 days after a large water change. I have two hob filters, both with filter pads, and some ceramic bio media. Maybe there is not enough bacteria, or it is being depleted from the copper?

 

[Humblefish]

Do the parasites usually drop off all the fish at the same time, or is it independent and multiple stages of the life cycle constantly occurring? ie some fish drop them and another one is just getting them or still has them

The trophonts drop off at various times. It was once thought they mostly drop off at night, when fish rest near the substrate, but that theory has been called into question.

Is it ok for me to add microbacteria7 to the qt will copper treatment to help keep the bacteria up? My ammonia seems to keep reappearing after about 2 days after a large water change. I have two hob filters, both with filter pads, and some ceramic bio media. Maybe there is not enough bacteria, or it is being depleted from the copper?

If you dose bacteria directly into copper water, most will be eradicated before ever reaching the QT’s bio-media.

 

[Josh Kraft]

Would seeding a sponge and adding it to his hob filter help his cause?

 

[Humblefish]

Would seeding a sponge and adding it to his hob filter help his cause?

Yes, but seed the sponge in a bucket for 5-7 days without copper in the water.

 

[Cjud7982]

[/QUOTE]
If you dose bacteria directly into copper water, most will be eradicated before ever reaching the QT’s bio-media. [/QUOTE]

OK, and I am assuming this would be counterproductive then causing the ammonia to rise from the dead bacteria.

 

[Cjud7982]

Would seeding a sponge and adding it to his hob filter help his cause?

Thanks for the idea!

Yes, but seed the sponge in a bucket for 5-7 days without copper in the water.

I will start seeding some sponges tonight and try to get them loaded up over the next week of so.