Help! Copper confussion

[Phishguy3.0]

Hello, I need advice. I had fish in a qt that showed signs of ICH. I introduced copper into the qt making it a medic tank. My worry is that there are tomont that fell off prior to the copper levels being effective. My question is after a 30 treatment my intent is to add carbon to the filter. Will I be running a risk of re infecting my fish. My understanding is tomont can take up to 70+ days to hatch and are unaffected by copper at this point. Thanks for your help.

 

[HotRocks]

30 days is typically long enough. It would be rare to encounter a strain that can survive past 30 days. Well explained in the link below. This is why it is recommended to observe for 14 days after treatment is complete before putting in DT. Just in case.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/

 

[Big G]

Usual treatment in a quarantine tank for ich/velvet is to treat for 30 days at therapeutic levels. Remove copper with carbon, water changes, Cuprisorb, etc. And then observe for 7-10 days. Doesn't happen very often but sometimes another round of copper is necessary. Then if you are prophylactically treating the fish for internal parasites (worms) you dose the QT with prazipro & metro, or General Cure.

The 76 days number is usually used to describe the treatment of a "fallow" main/display tank that is not being treated with copper because of corals, inverts, etc. and you are attempting to starve out the parasites by having it "fishless."

And Welcome to R2R!

 

[HotRocks]

Also welcome to R2R!
Great Place, Great People, and tons of great information!

 

[deedubz]

Welcome to R2R!
Are these fish otherwise ready to go into the DT or is that running fallow?

I ask because, and this may be overkill, I like to setup a "dipping station" between tank transfers... whether that's while doing ttm, moving fish to a new qt, or from qt to dt. If they've done their time in a tank I will take a bowl of water from the NEW QT/DT (assuming all parameters match) and simply "dip" the fish in the bowl for a second or two prior to moving them to their new home. My hope here is this "rinses" the existing tank water, and whatever may be in it, off of them.

 

[Big G]

+1 on this ^^^ used to be somewhat common to dip fish between tanks with methylene blue as a preventative and curative for transfers at some shops and especially breeders. A more modern version could be a dip in a bath of Ruby Reef Rally to achieve the same goals.

 

[Phishguy3.0]

Welcome to R2R!
Are these fish otherwise ready to go into the DT or is that running fallow?

I ask because, and this may be overkill, I like to setup a "dipping station" between tank transfers... whether that's while doing ttm, moving fish to a new qt, or from qt to dt. If they've done their time in a tank I will take a bowl of water from the NEW QT/DT (assuming all parameters match) and simply "dip" the fish in the bowl for a second or two prior to moving them to their new home. My hope here is this "rinses" the existing tank water, and whatever may be in it, off of them.

I put a wrasse and butterfly in at QT I set up using my main tanks water supply. Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 10 ph 8.4. I had a filter pad I pulled from my canister to put in my hob filter. After seeing spots I medicated. I'm afraid since I only have a qt/medic tank and not both that tomont will survive

 

[HotRocks]

I put a wrasse and butterfly in at QT I set up using my main tanks water supply. Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 10 ph 8.4. I had a filter pad I pulled from my canister to put in my hob filter. After seeing spots I medicated. I'm afraid since I only have a qt/medic tank and not both that tomont will survive

You will be fine as long as you don't put the fish back in the DT for 76 days.
The absence of fish in DT breaks the life cycle of the parasite, and it will be erradicated.

Keep the fish in the QT for the fallow period. The theory is the copper kills the free swimming stage before it can infect the fish, this is how the life cycle is broken with fish present.

 

[Phishguy3.0]

You will be fine as long as you don't put the fish back in the DT for 76 days.
The absence of fish in DT breaks the life cycle of the parasite, and it will be erradicated.

Keep them in the QT for the fallow period. The theory is the copper kills the free swimming stage before it can infect the fish.

My concern is prior to the medication being effective there were tomont introduced to the qt. Does copper kill tomont after they fall and encapsulate.

 

[HotRocks]

My concern is prior to the medication being effective there were tomont introduced to the qt. Does copper kill tomont after they fall and encapsulate.

Did you see that link from my first post? Usually most strains reach the free swimming stage within 7-14 days. Therefore, the 30 day therapeutic duration will most likely eliminate the parasites.

What type of copper are using?
What test kit?

It's very important to make sure you maintain the theraputic level throughout the 30 days.

 

[Big G]

My concern is prior to the medication being effective there were tomont introduced to the qt. Does copper kill tomont after they fall and encapsulate.

No it won't kill the tomont while encapsulated. The 70+ day incubation of tomont is extremely rare.

 

[Phishguy3.0]

Did you see that link from my first post? Usually most strains reach the free swimming stage within 7-14 days. Therefore, the 30 day therapeutic duration will most likely eliminate the parasites.

What type of copper are using?
What test kit?

It's very important to make sure you maintain the theraputic level throughout the 30 days.

I did look at the link you posted. Thank you. My confussion I guess is the understanding the difference between the tomont stage in a hospital tank vs a display tank. I understand most ich in the tomont stage will pop and then die.

 

[Phishguy3.0]

Did you see that link from my first post? Usually most strains reach the free swimming stage within 7-14 days. Therefore, the 30 day therapeutic duration will most likely eliminate the parasites.

What type of copper are using?
What test kit?

It's very important to make sure you maintain the theraputic level throughout the 30 days.

I'm using cupramine and salifert test kit

 

[Phishguy3.0]

Thanks for all the help folks.

 

[Deezill]

I'm using cupramine and salifert test kit

I am using Coopersafe it's easier on the Fish. So far I have a PBT and 4 small Lyretail anthis in Qt running copper at 2.0ppm
and they are doing great. i was going to do Cupramine until I read the article on Chelated copper vs ionic Copper treatments.
I am sure someone can post the article. be careful with Wrasses and Copper treatments in general. Chelated seems to be an all around good choice.

 

[Phishguy3.0]

Does anyone know if one can use dr tims live bacteria with copper. I'm having an ammonia spike and and doing a 50% wAter change as we speak.

 

[HotRocks]

Does anyone know if one can use dr tims live bacteria with copper. I'm having an ammonia spike and and doing a 50% wAter change as we speak.

Dr Tims is good to use with copper.

 

[Deezill]

I am not sure about others but during QT and doing Water changes left and right I blow thru salt so I purchased Instant Ocean salt because its cheap. I normally use Red Sea Coral Pro in my DT but I refuse to put that in QT. IO is cheap and gets the job done. I also use bacteria from my LFS not Dr. TIm's lol. I love Dr. Tim's. In my 29 gallon DT I use the KISS principle. Keep IT Simple Silly. Now laugh at my frugality lol.

 

[Phishguy3.0]

Hey there folks. I just want to say Thank You for all your advice. My fish are healthy and back in my display tank after over two months of hospital and qt the fish and main tank are free from ich and other possible paricites.

 

[Big G]

It's a good day