IMO how to set up a tank to be healthy and immune

[Freenow54]

I'm trying to get back to this but my wife needs some extra care today as she is not doing to good right now.

I wish you success

 

[Paul B]

WE have to get away from this idea that dirt is bad for fish. We Humans evolved to eat a lot of dirt in our lives, most Neanderthals didn't have that little push thing next to their Delta sink faucet filled with that nice smelling baby blue Anti- Bacterial soap with the Supermodel or Clownfish on the label.

They used to kill a 5 thousand pound Wolly Mammoth by standing behind a door and tripping him as they lumbered by. Then Mr. Ally Oop Neanderthal would take out his pen knife and carve out a quarter pound piece of meat for a hamburger, if he was married he may cut out another piece for his main squeeze, then they may rinse it off in the same puddle their dog sleeps in and scrape off the 15" Mammoth hair with their teeth before eating it whole. The rest of the Mammoth they gave to the dog or put it in the recycle bin.

Remember Neanderthals walked around for about 400,000 years while we have only been here since they invented Malls so they were pretty successful in spite of all the dirt and Wolly Mammoth hair they ate. Dirt may be the secret to keeping us and reef tanks healthy even though I realize most people today feel dirt is bad, but thats because of advertising and probably lawyers. (I blame lawyers for almost everything)

Fish in the sea eat a lot of dirt and fish poop. Fish poop is mostly gut bacteria so fish know what they are doing and as long as we leave them alone and don't medicate them or treat them like our domesticated designer lap dog they will be fine. We make them sick, no one else. Besides fish don't really have a tongue so may be can't tell the difference between poop and a T Bone steak.

 

[ScottJ]

One of my Grandmothers favorite sayings was "You eat a peck of dirt before you die."

 

[vlangel]

I actually put a fair amount of organic garden dirt in the deep sand bed in my sump. I did that because I was trying to grow shoal seagrass. I did not have success with the seagrass but everything else has done great! I think of fish poop and dirt as nutrient rich fertilizer for coral and macroalgae.

 

[GARRIGA]

Paul,

Curious what temps you keep your tank at and did you observe on your dives the water being considerably colder down where the corals lived?

Been considering this since my 90s tank survived a north eastern that dropped tank water to 54 before I was able to place inhabitants on a pair of buckets and rescue them to my parents house which was maintained around typical 72 room temperature. Lost one but overall amazed the others didn't perish and months later showed no ill affects from the hardship.

Was speaking with another who's been in the business prior to my introduction and who also spends much time under the waves as you have. Informed how it's much cooler and that's how he's kept fish and corals for years. All started because I mentioned my display will end up where it's 69 year round due to needing constant AC in south Florida. Your thoughts? Please...

Tie in being colder with improved oxygen might help in keeping healthy fish and inverts.

 

[Paul B]

GARRIGA, I don't think temperature is that important to fish or corals. I know cold blooded creatures (and some politicians) like we keep slow down as the temp gets colder but I doubt they suffer any ill effects. My tank has gone from about 90 to the 60s with no ill effects.

I like to keep it about 78 or so degrees but I have 3 thermometers and they all read about 5 degrees off so I just go in the middle. The thermometer I normally use all the time and is on my tank is this gauge I took from the Plaza Hotel in Manhattan as I was renovating the place. It is from 1907 so I don't know for sure how accurate it is.



The temperature I experienced SCUBA diving varies all over the place but if I remember it was about 85 degrees in Bora Bora.

Tahiti


Seems a little warm to me. Today in the Florida Keys it's 87 degrees. But the corals in those places are not doing to well either so maybe it's too hot for them.

Florida Keys



Much of my dives were here in New York where it may reach 70 but goes to about 35 in the winter.

 

[Devaji]

very nice read paul, I 100% believe in your method. it's natural and just makes since.

for my new 200 FOWLR I was gonna do this way. but the LPS reef is with in 10' and I decided to QT the fish. so it woul dnot make since to do one with out the other.

that said i am going to feed black worms, clams and earth worms with dirt on them.
might even add a couple pinches of dirt to the tank.

once its stops snowing here yes it may 8th and still snowing here in the mountains. i will be adding real ocean LR.

IDk its the best I can do. I call it the middle path. so prob.worst of both ways.
getting healthy fish shipped in was hard for me. wrasses where the worst.

the QTed wrasse I got did not dive in the sand and was eating hours later.
so that's a positive.

 

[GARRIGA]

My hypothesis that healthy fish are less likely to get infected by vast numbers of pathogens and that naturally keeps pathogens in check. Key being healthy. Is that inline with your observations or research?

 

[SudzFD]

Excellent thread, enjoyed every minute. Somewhat supports my less is more mantra and try to get people to stop micromanaging their tanks. I learned a lot here. Thanks!!.

 

[JayM]

WE have to get away from this idea that dirt is bad for fish. We Humans evolved to eat a lot of dirt in our lives, most Neanderthals didn't have that little push thing next to their Delta sink faucet filled with that nice smelling baby blue Anti- Bacterial soap with the Supermodel or Clownfish on the label.

They used to kill a 5 thousand pound Wolly Mammoth by standing behind a door and tripping him as they lumbered by. Then Mr. Ally Oop Neanderthal would take out his pen knife and carve out a quarter pound piece of meat for a hamburger, if he was married he may cut out another piece for his main squeeze, then they may rinse it off in the same puddle their dog sleeps in and scrape off the 15" Mammoth hair with their teeth before eating it whole. The rest of the Mammoth they gave to the dog or put it in the recycle bin.

Remember Neanderthals walked around for about 400,000 years while we have only been here since they invented Malls so they were pretty successful in spite of all the dirt and Wolly Mammoth hair they ate. Dirt may be the secret to keeping us and reef tanks healthy even though I realize most people today feel dirt is bad, but thats because of advertising and probably lawyers. (I blame lawyers for almost everything)

Fish in the sea eat a lot of dirt and fish poop. Fish poop is mostly gut bacteria so fish know what they are doing and as long as we leave them alone and don't medicate them or treat them like our domesticated designer lap dog they will be fine. We make them sick, no one else. Besides fish don't really have a tongue so may be can't tell the difference between poop and a T Bone steak.

Couldn't agree more. Look how it seems that all of us feral kids that grew up in the 70's and before never got sick like kids now. We played in the dirt, drank from the hose and didn't die. Heck, I can even drink the water in Mexico with no ill effects.

 

[Paul B]

My hypothesis that healthy fish are less likely to get infected by vast numbers of pathogens and that naturally keeps pathogens in check. Key being healthy. Is that inline with your observations or research?

Yes, but seemingly healthy looking fish may not be completely healthy because if they were medicated or quarantined for a long period of time, their immunity "may" be compromised due to their weakened gut bacteria that controls immunity. If the fish are never exposed to pathogens, they are not immune from them so to me anyway, they are not complete fish as the immune system is a big part of a fish.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[GARRIGA]

Yes, but seemingly healthy looking fish may not be completely healthy because if they were medicated or quarantined for a long period of time, their immunity "may" be compromised due to their weakened gut bacteria that controls immunity. If the fish are never exposed to pathogens, they are not immune from them so to me anyway, they are not complete fish as the immune system is a big part of a fish.

Just my opinion of course.

We're on the same page. See some medications clearly state they attack the good bacteria and we assume probiotics will fix it. Might be best as you do. Keep them healthy and stress free and they might just fight the bugs themselves.

Saw some videos yesterday on carp that are heavily studied in this respect. Considering the price of koi that makes sense. Interesting information.

 

[Paul B]

Saw some videos yesterday on carp that are heavily studied in this respect. Considering the price of koi that makes sense. Interesting information.

It's very hard to kill carp. They also taste like tar. My Dad had a sea food business and we used to have 2 bathtubs in the back full of live carp and eels. I don't particularly like the taste of carp or just about any freshwater fish and we don't eat any of it although we do eat saltwater fish a few times a week. We will probably eat it tonight.

My Dad sold a lot of carp to Jewish People because it's one of the fish in gefilte fish which I also don't like as that tastes like melted tar.

Carp are also in just about every fresh water pond on Earth. If they tasted good, you wouldn't find so many of them. They are basically a trash fish but probably good for fertilizer.

 

[Paul B]

Couldn't agree more.

You could if you tried harder.

I can even drink the water in Mexico with no ill effects.

We have been to Mexico a few times and I really am not crazy about the place. The last time my wife and I both ended up in the hospital as soon as we got home with dysentery, and we didn't drink the water. I think they should put a fence around the place and burn it. But I also think about Manhattan like that. But I need to get my Grand Kids out of there first.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Puffer fish will check out divers.

Triggers & parrot fish too from what I experienced.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Couldn't agree more. Look how it seems that all of us feral kids that grew up in the 70's and before never got sick like kids now. We played in the dirt, drank from the hose and didn't die. Heck, I can even drink the water in Mexico with no ill effects.

Stolen strawberries from the fields were extra crunchy with the dirt on them - nobody cared.

 

[BZOFIQ]

...

Is the ruler there for reference purposes or to slice the clams into even chunks