Is a self sustained reef tank possible?

brandon429 · Aug 11, 2016

this is the old man fw hands off sys. it is now only fw shrimp so that I don't even have fish to deal with, these shrimp self sustain off epiphytic growths on the plants

I want this to be considered for Martian space travel crop sustain science testing ideally. What's the least you can run a productive pod with and for how long? In space I'd duct some sunlight to it

A corn/food plant version is coming and the ecosystem balance off the three gallons of water, massive sandbed ratio and low but constant fresh detritus pellet from shrimp is already verified productive for about 13 yrs running with full balance. The key will be reducing fert needs and finding top off support. Heading towards Mars that will likely mean some kind of Waterworld recirculating device

Dry land is not a myth

JohnnyTabasco · Aug 11, 2016

This is very interesting. I have ben thinking a lot about alternatives to skimming, gfo and so on. There must be other ways than what youtube trends tell us.

Check out the guy. He is not filtering out particles and has not done so i two years. He let's it build up in his refugium. Kinda the oppeset of what "people" are recommending.
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/140-tank-of-the-month

TherealplexiG · Aug 12, 2016

brandon429 said:
I feel my 13 yr old planted tank is the closest that can be made of a true self sustainer.

That's awesome, could you please share a pic?
10 inch planted sand bed? why do one need such a deep bed. I'm not well versed with planted tanks. So please enlighten.

brandon429 · Aug 12, 2016

sandbeds in the 50+ yr planted tank design are very different from marine ones in my opinion if the goal is to be self sustaining where you don't intervene much if ever and the hardware/biology has redundancies built in to handle unexpected events like power outages, AC outages etc.

That is the hardest thing IMO for self sustainers, dealing with the fact support systems and hardware not even connected to the tank at times. we don't see the house as the ecocontroller and it is for the self sustainers, so they need wide temp variance abilities and that also begins to exclude many niche marine setups.

Paul has to be hands on with his marine sandbed to get it to 50 in short time... it can't be hands permanently off or it wouldn't have lasted past 1992. it requires cleaning to be this old, and RUGF to lower the cleaning.

at the pH level our reef tanks run, detritus and rotting waste is a real chemical liability for losses within the tank, but FW is different that's pretty much neutral water above and loads of detritus are not an ammonia concern, it is plant food. its rot doesn't kill the hoards of inbred cherry shrimp up top, filling the bed with pellets, recycling the epiphytic growths off the plants which self regenerate from the deep bed over and over

I literally have not removed detritus from that tank since 2002 but it doesn't stink, rot, or have sulfide areas because the bed is decently oxygenated even still (aerenchyma root O2 et al)

that substrate above is a mix of laterite powder about three pounds at the very bottom then it has seachem fluorite, which is a pretty inert hard baked clay substrate but that's a critical part of the lasting substrate design imo. it creates channels that don't collapse, and those spots are the detritus pockets of enduring nutrients in the bed.

a real mud bed in the planted tank would self exhaust and go stinky rotten, like the majority of typical reef sandbeds when you flip them over

but the channeling afforded by hard packed substrate mixed with a decades shrimp pellet waste (being the highest level input so the input is slow) is a key design for freshwater self sustained systems imo. I truly fully scientifically believe that system above will outlive me and have an indefinite life span provided these minimum requirements

topoff
occasional ferts if we want it to look pretty, it'll have more chlorosis without ferts but still works
replacing shrimp if they ever get a bac infection or some catastrophic loss
occasional hand algae wiping at the shoreline, basic visual maintenance but this is fully a non water change, feed every 6 mos or not system. that's why I don't think true self sustainers exist with any decent level of things to look at, some human intervention is required if we are going beyond just a plant, or some opulae finite lifespan shrimp bowls. have been trying to build a self sustaining any type of system since 2001 and that bowl above is the closest I got. thanks for posting!

ReeferReefer · Aug 12, 2016

brandon429 said:
sandbeds in the 50+ yr planted tank design are very different from marine ones in my opinion if the goal is to be self sustaining where you don't intervene much if ever and the hardware/biology has redundancies built in to handle unexpected events like power outages, AC outages etc.

That is the hardest thing IMO for self sustainers, dealing with the fact support systems and hardware not even connected to the tank at times. we don't see the house as the ecocontroller and it is for the self sustainers, so they need wide temp variance abilities and that also begins to exclude many niche marine setups.

Paul has to be hands on with his marine sandbed to get it to 50 in short time... it can't be hands permanently off or it wouldn't have lasted past 1992. it requires cleaning to be this old, and RUGF to lower the cleaning.

at the pH level our reef tanks run, detritus and rotting waste is a real chemical liability for losses within the tank, but FW is different that's pretty much neutral water above and loads of detritus are not an ammonia concern, it is plant food. its rot doesn't kill the hoards of inbred cherry shrimp up top, filling the bed with pellets, recycling the epiphytic growths off the plants which self regenerate from the deep bed over and over

I literally have not removed detritus from that tank since 2002 but it doesn't stink, rot, or have sulfide areas because the bed is decently oxygenated even still (aerenchyma root O2 et al)

that substrate above is a mix of laterite powder about three pounds at the very bottom then it has seachem fluorite, which is a pretty inert hard baked clay substrate but that's a critical part of the lasting substrate design imo. it creates channels that don't collapse, and those spots are the detritus pockets of enduring nutrients in the bed.

a real mud bed in the planted tank would self exhaust and go stinky rotten, like the majority of typical reef sandbeds when you flip them over

but the channeling afforded by hard packed substrate mixed with a decades shrimp pellet waste (being the highest level input so the input is slow) is a key design for freshwater self sustained systems imo. I truly fully scientifically believe that system above will outlive me and have an indefinite life span provided these minimum requirements

topoff
occasional ferts if we want it to look pretty, it'll have more chlorosis without ferts but still works
replacing shrimp if they ever get a bac infection or some catastrophic loss
occasional hand algae wiping at the shoreline, basic visual maintenance but this is fully a non water change, feed every 6 mos or not system. that's why I don't think true self sustainers exist with any decent level of things to look at, some human intervention is required if we are going beyond just a plant, or some opulae finite lifespan shrimp bowls. have been trying to build a self sustaining any type of system since 2001 and that bowl above is the closest I got. thanks for posting!

Going off this the only way to get close to this in a marine system would be a heavily planted marine tank. You could do some soft corals as well but it would not be a traditional reef tank, and tangs would not work like he wanted.

Paul B · Aug 12, 2016

I don't think it is possible to have a "decent" tank with no maintenance, but I believe my tank has very minimum maintenance. I can't keep delicate SPS corals probably due to nutrients. (or my stupidity) I have a 100 gallon tank and I change about 100 gallons of water a year. I do have a skimmer that I use with ozone so I have to clean the neck on that every week or two and the algae scrubber must be scraped every 2 weeks. I don't vacuum the sand (or gravel) because there is nothing on it but "yearly" I stir it up and run a diatom filter so the reverse UG filter doesn't clog. I use no pellets, GFO, GAC, dosers, or controllers and I feed mostly clams and worms (new born brine shrimp for the pipes and mandarins) so I think the tank is very natural. I also add mud, amphipods and sometimes water from the sea. But I spend little time on maintenance. I usually go for two weeks before I do anything except feed and clean the front glass. I forgot, every 3 or 4 days, when I remember I add some home made calcium and alk. I also don't have a quarantine or hospital tank and have no medications because they are never needed. No test kits either. Fish go right in after a little acclimation so I don't waste time on that aspect. I also don't have to spend time buying fish because they only die from old age so I have to many fish.

jerseypete · Aug 12, 2016

In a closed system as a tank it could never be

jerseypete · Aug 12, 2016

In a closed system I don't think it could ever be self sustained. Every process no matter what uses some energy in some form or another. As the energy form is depleted. A waste or by product is produced. That waste can be used by others as an energy souce. But during every process there is a loss. Some home heaters are 98% efficent. 2% of the energy source goes out the flue. In a closed system I think life could be sustained indefinitely. Some micro organisms, or other things. Just not what we would choose. You would always run a deficit on something. Kinda like the earth itself. Self sustained. Maybe. But as you look back in time. Different species were at the top of the food chain at different times. Dinosaurs, man, etc. And I think as the source of our cheap energy runs out. Oil. It may change ranks again. Or severely thin the population.

brandon429 · Aug 12, 2016

agreed fully. given enough time it will reduce to just bacteria, which may then stay forever. it would be amazing to track a time capsule system, open it 200 yrs later all dead but see which microbes remained, gene sequence those, grow more, then put them into human energy food bars as the ultimate tough probiotic treat.

jerseypete · Aug 12, 2016

When you think about it that's how it kind of starts. 100 gallon fish tank full of salt water. Then someone throws a dead shrimp in there. Then the next thing you know you start to see ammonia. Then it goes on and on and on

PatW · Aug 12, 2016

Trying to construct a self sustaining nearly closed ecosystem is not easy. Have you researched that your tangs can survive on the algae produced? Do you have the right varieties to keep the fish healthy? Do you have any idea of how much net primary production you are going to get? Do you have notion of the net secondary production in pods?

Production in reef ecosystems is available in the literature as are the energy flows through the system. But why bother when you can short circuit the whole deal by buying some mysis?

Coral reef communities are not self contained. They get nutrients flowing through. The fish on the reef often start out in nurseries like mangroves and turtle grass flats.

Literature will show you that compact self contained systems usually have gyrations in populations and crash.

It is an appealing notion. But most aquariums have far more fish in them than a comparable volume of reef.

SantaMonica · Aug 13, 2016

self sustaining system as there will be no source of alkalinity

They would still dose Cal, Alk, Mag and Str. The self-sustaining part just meant self-feeding via the filter.

A completely closed biosphere is different, of course.

In a closed system I don't think it could ever be self sustained. Every process no matter what uses some energy in some form or another. As the energy form is depleted.

But it is replenished via light and photosynthesis. So it's really not totally closed; that would require a blackout shield. And to get picky, EMF signals would still excite molecules inside, adding even more energy; so complete enclosure would require shunting of EMF around the tank.

But we'll just setting for no feeding, no cleaning

box scrubber, which one would u recommend for a 800 liters tank

Glad you like the SURF models. This guideline should help:
http://www.santa-monica.cc/Which-one_p_63.html

nanomania · Aug 13, 2016

brandon429 said:
id have to agree with that line of thought. its always a theory

nano reefers would have modeled one 16 yrs ago if possible, the big tankers who pull it off are only buying time with dilution. I guess the ecospheres are the closest to date, with a finite lifespan even still. in and out is simply required eventually, all else is theory we cant pull up an example for

now after having said that bias, I feel my 13 yr old planted tank is the closest that can be made of a true self sustainer. how about no water changes, circulation, heating, any electricity other than a metal halide above it, no feeding, w fish (wild type guppies only for bioload balance) and a ten inch deep planted substrate for 7 yrs straight

Freshwater biomes can beat what reefs can do in terms of true self sustenance, says the collected examples. then theres that one guy we can google from England who has a planted big jar 40 years never opened (supposedly) which is +10 more for freshwater concept proofs

I have 2 such planted tanks that are fully covered and have not done a wc since past 2 years, also recieves 2hrs of direct sunlight and rest of the day indirect sunlight. I have shrimps breeding in it and plants growing like weed, i open it every sunday to trim some plants. There is no water circulation too.. well this was the only reason i started this topic, obviously 1 cant go wothout good flow and lighting in a reef tank, but i just thought if low bioload, cheato (or ATS), supplemental dosing and hardy soft corals and lps wpuld work or no. However its been 6mnths, my 42g doesnt have a skimmer, but jus filter pads and cheato with purigen, carbon and phosguard as filteration. Have not done a wc other than acclimating fish and adding fresh salt water. Everything is going great as of now.

nanomania · Aug 13, 2016

Paul B said:
I don't think it is possible to have a "decent" tank with no maintenance, but I believe my tank has very minimum maintenance. I can't keep delicate SPS corals probably due to nutrients. (or my stupidity) I have a 100 gallon tank and I change about 100 gallons of water a year. I do have a skimmer that I use with ozone so I have to clean the neck on that every week or two and the algae scrubber must be scraped every 2 weeks. I don't vacuum the sand (or gravel) because there is nothing on it but "yearly" I stir it up and run a diatom filter so the reverse UG filter doesn't clog. I use no pellets, GFO, GAC, dosers, or controllers and I feed mostly clams and worms (new born brine shrimp for the pipes and mandarins) so I think the tank is very natural. I also add mud, amphipods and sometimes water from the sea. But I spend little time on maintenance. I usually go for two weeks before I do anything except feed and clean the front glass. I forgot, every 3 or 4 days, when I remember I add some home made calcium and alk. I also don't have a quarantine or hospital tank and have no medications because they are never needed. No test kits either. Fish go right in after a little acclimation so I don't waste time on that aspect. I also don't have to spend time buying fish because they only die from old age so I have to many fish.

Can u please share some pics?

nanomania · Aug 13, 2016

Iv seen many ATS only tanks, wouldnt that be called a selfsustained tank? As no other filters used. Yes but weekly scraping the algae. Also iv seen many dont do a wc, still maintain a healthy tank. Maybe in future someone invents an ats with self scraper, hopefully its not as expensive as the new tissue paper roll technology instead of filtersock...lol..

nanomania · Aug 13, 2016

Here is my all natural self sustained planted tank with shrimps breeding and snails breeding too. Its covered with 2mm acrylic sheet and no air pockets. No waterchange ever done, no dosing too. Sand used is potting soil capped with riversand. Just a share, iknow its impossible to do something like this for a reef tank.

najer · Aug 13, 2016

Interesting.
Givens for my tank are manual dose C A M and manual RO top up.
I do feed.
Trace element powder buffer when I remember.

England here so this will be in litres, sorry.

700 litre that runs at 550 litre (138 G) water volume.
I do test my kh about once a month and test Calcium and mag less often.
Tank is 10 months old now and has never been tested for nitrates or phos.

My display is 300 litres and there is a divide 3/5 of the way along the tank that leaves a 200 litre low cube end.
The divide has a 70 mm swim through hole in it.
Both ends have their own weirs to a shared sump that is just a refugium with 2 heaters and 2 return pumps.

I designed the system with the help of my lfs to run as "naturally" as possible.
Last waterchange was about 5 months ago, I do clean the glass occasionally.

The cube end is mainly softies with a lot of palys and my 2 BTAs.

I have about 15 small fish including a baby mimic tang.

The first 5 months were a non stop battle with green slime algae as it took that long for the fuge to get up to speed and during those months I did have phos media and carbon in media bags to help.
My display is mainly LPS and SPS,
I have never cleaned the sump but I do skim off the scum layer of the fuge every week or 2 and give the macro algae a shake up!
Feed section from tank and the return section with the pumps are spotless except coraline algae.
I do have a CUC in the sump, mostly hermits and money / ring cowries.
There are also 5 baby mangroves in the refugium and 4 trays of mineral mud, 2 in the refugium and 2 in the feed from tank section.

I recently found my limits with sps as I lost a red dragon acro frag I tried.
My montis grow very well, my acros more slowly.

Been doing a lot of watching and thinking about my sps recently, mainly working on lighting and flow as I know I can do better colour, even considering doing a monthly 5% waterchange just to help with trace elements.
My animals don't just exist but some of my sps undoubtedly grow more slowly than they might in a "cleaner" tank.

As to longer term progress I guess we will see, if I need to intervene I have skimmers on standby as well as phos media and carbon, I would not let the animals in my care suffer just because I have a theory that I will not deviate from.
Fts of the display from a week or 2 ago.

nanomania · Aug 13, 2016

najer said:
Interesting.
Givens for my tank are manual dose C A M and manual RO top up.
I do feed.
Trace element powder buffer when I remember.

England here so this will be in litres, sorry.
700 litre that runs at 550 litre (138 G) water volume.
I do test my kh about once a month and test Calcium and mag less often.
Tank is 10 months old now and has never been tested for nitrates or phos.

My display is 300 litres and there is a divide 3/5 of the way along the tank that leaves a 200 litre low cube end.
The divide has a 70 mm swim through hole in it.
Both ends have their own weirs to a shared sump that is just a refugium with 2 heaters and 2 return pumps.

I designed the system with the help of my lfs to run as "naturally" as possible.
Last waterchange was about 5 months ago, I do clean the glass occasionally.
The cube end is mainly softies with a lot of palys and my 2 BTAs.

I have about 15 small fish including a baby mimic tang.

The first 5 months were a non stop battle with green slime algae as it took that long for the fuge to get up to speed and during those months I did have phos media and carbon in media bags to help.
My display is mainly LPS and SPS,
I have never cleaned the sump but I do skim off the scum layer of the fuge every week or 2 and give the macro algae a shake up!
Feed section from tank and the return section with the pumps are spotless except coraline algae.
I do have a CUC in the sump, mostly hermits and money / ring cowries.
There are also 5 baby mangroves in the refugium and 4 trays of mineral mud, 2 in the refugium and 2 in the feed from tank section.

I recently found my limits with sps as I lost a red dragon acro frag I tried.
My montis grow very well, my acros more slowly.

Been doing a lot of watching and thinking about my sps recently, mainly working on lighting and flow as I know I can do better colour, even considering doing a monthly 5% waterchange just to help with trace elements.
My animals don't just exist but some of my sps undoubtedly grow more slowly than they might in a "cleaner" tank.

As to longer term progress I guess we will see, if I need to intervene I have skimmers on standby as well as phos media and carbon, I would not let the animals in my care suffer just because I have a theory that I will not deviate from.
Fts of the display from a week or 2 ago.

Awsm bro.. means i guess it is possible if only softies and lps are kept and supplements are dosed as needed. Can u share more photos? Especially of ur sump?? Would be great.