Is this a legit way to regenerate DI

[DrZoidburg]

HCl is not any sort of oxidizer and it is not breaking divinyl benzene crosslinks.

Right however depending on what is in the water. My thought that hardware store hcl has chlorine, and impurities. They tend to go from water clear to yellow with age. These can break the links, and useful life of dvb. This is why some places will suggest in city water with higher chlorine to go from 12% crosslink dvb to over 15% crosslink. To resist the oxidation.

 

[HuduVudu]

Right however depending on what is in the water. My thought that hardware store hcl has chlorine, and impurities. They tend to go from water clear to yellow with age. These can break the links, and useful life of dvb. This is why some places will suggest in city water with higher chlorine to go from 12% crosslink dvb to over 15% crosslink. To resist the oxidation.

If I do this I will probably get purer stuff from EBay. Wasn't thinking of using Muratic acid.

Economics will definitely play a role.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right however depending on what is in the water. My thought that hardware store hcl has chlorine, and impurities. They tend to go from water clear to yellow with age. These can break the links, and useful life of dvb. This is why some places will suggest in city water with higher chlorine to go from 12% crosslink dvb to over 15% crosslink. To resist the oxidation.

Why think HCl has chlorine in it?

Impurities, yes. Chlorine, no. Same as sulfuric acid.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Here is some helpful resources.

Ion Exchange Resin Structure

Chemical structure of ion exchange resins

dardel.info

Resin Performance - Drinking Water - Climate Policy Watcher

Variances in resin performance and capacities can be expected from normal annual attrition rates of ion-exchange resins. Typical attrition losses that can be

www.climate-policy-watcher.org

The Role of Cross-linking in Ion Exchange Resins

By: C. F. ‘Chubb’ Michaud, CWS-VI If it ain’t broke…One of the most frequent questions I get is, “How do I know when it is time to change my softener resin?” The simple answer is, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” If the system is working to your satisfaction, then it’s working well enough. We d

wcponline.com

Ion exchange regeneration methods

Ion exchange resins regeneration with co- and counterflow (reverse flow regeneration also called counter-current regeneration) technology

dardel.info

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks. I'm familiar with polymer resins. It's what I do for a real world job.

Entrega

puretechhealth.com

"Entrega’s technology platform is an innovative approach to oral administration which uses a proprietary, customizable hydrogel dosage form to control local fluid microenvironments in the GI tract in an effort to both enhance absorption and reduce the variability of drug exposure."

 

[DrZoidburg]

Why think HCl has chlorine in it?

Impurities, yes. Chlorine, no. Same as sulfuric acid.

Trace amounts of chlorine, iron, organic impurities, of degradation products of plastic, or liner glues etc. Also the hardware stuff is very high percent. Doesn't chlorine only have a certain solubility in water? After that point wouldn't it still have some chlorine?

 

[HuduVudu]

One thing that seems to be lost here is what to expect for the number of reuses before the resin fails.

A specific number would be more helpful, because what is may seem to be a low reuse for some might be a high reuse for me.

 

[DrZoidburg]

@Randy Holmes-Farley that's what you do I don't argue that. What I see in my experience regenerating the resins. Is that it does have an effect. Also you see in some of these article some of the things I'm talking about. The other one I am still trying to find actually displays a chemical mechanism of how it destroys it.

 

[DrZoidburg]

hydrogen chloride + water= hcl acid right so if there is trace metals in it, or fouling the resin is it not possible to make chlorine?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right however depending on what is in the water. My thought that hardware store hcl has chlorine, and impurities. They tend to go from water clear to yellow with age. These can break the links, and useful life of dvb. This is why some places will suggest in city water with higher chlorine to go from 12% crosslink dvb to over 15% crosslink. To resist the oxidation.

If one can buy pure sulfuric acid, you can buy equally pure hydrochloric acid.

There is nothing wrong with hydrochloric acid.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

hydrogen chloride + water= hcl acid right so if there is trace metals in it, or fouling the resin is it not possible to make chlorine?

Nope, not possible to make significant chlorine from H+ and Cl- just from impurities.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley that's what you do I don't argue that. What I see in my experience regenerating the resins. Is that it does have an effect. Also you see in some of these article some of the things I'm talking about. The other one I am still trying to find actually displays a chemical mechanism of how it destroys it.

ALL manufacturers recommend HcL as suitable for regeneration. If you have an issue that we cannot understand the logic of, I suggest you talk to them.

I also see no reason to ever use tap water as part of that process.

Here's the recommendation from Dupont:

https://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/water-solutions/public/documents/en/45-D01131-en.pdf

see page 3 where it indicates to use HCl or H2SO4 for regeneration

 

[DrZoidburg]

When I'm talking about "because of the chlorine" in it. I mean it generally like how people describe it in water treatment terms. Not like dry chlorine. However my though process is that hcl is clear gas, and chlorine gas is yellow. So in a container that is maxed out on hcl gas solubility. Almost the highest percent. At a certain point inside a closed container that there is metal salts, others, small amounts of chlorine, or other forms that just cant fit, or have color. Is how I see maybe why it goes from clear to yellow over time. So now say even if that is trace what about a situation where my water source had maybe organics, certain metals that released chlorine like manganese can when reacting. Even damaging 1/5th amount of a crosslinks over x amount of times. Do you see how this could eventually cause failure at a faster rate? Do I have some kind of magic water where for some odd reason regeneration with hcl causes its to be less over time. Where as using sulfuric its over double the amount I get. Both with cation and anion. The anion goes faster though because I figured it looses functional groups faster. Also I have had my source tested its very low in most things that could do that. It also has no chlorine, or chloramines. So why would two methods have completely different amounts of times it can be regenerated? Sure either maybe fine but I see situations where one may choose one or the other. Even places that sell the resin will tell people this. I can also see why though that you would recommend against sulfuric for safety reasons. Both should be handled with care.

 

[DrZoidburg]

"This information is general information and may differ from that based on actual conditions."
"Please note that physical properties may vary depending on certain conditions and while operating conditions stated in this document are intended to lengthen product lifespan and/or improve product performance, it will ultimately depend on actual circumstances"

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There may be reasons to pick HCl over H2SO4, or H2SO4 over HCl (resin manufacturers say both work), but chlorine present in the HCl, or any purported effect of aqueous HCl on divinyl benezene crosslinks is not one of them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The yellow impurity in impure HCl is likely iron and other metals. There is no color whatsoever to high quality HCl.

Hydrochloric acid - CAMEO

cameo.mfa.org

"Hydrochloric acid is a colorless, pungent, highly corrosive liquid, however, some acid solutions may be yellowish due to dissolved iron impurities."

 

[DrZoidburg]

"Resins in service are subject to oxidation from chlorine or other oxidants"
"As the effective level of cross-linker decreases, the resin swells and becomes softer. Reactive sites become further spaced out and selectivity of the resin drops, giving rise to higher hardness leakages and lower capacity"

Eventually to the point where they crack and break into smaller pieces. Ie breaking links or structure.

"With increasing strain level over 10%, a higher crosslinking leads to a stiffer behaviour of the particles. While slightly crosslinked (2.0 and 5.0 wt%) particles undergo plastic deformation with crazing and residual strain"

"Slightly crosslinked particles become permanently deformed after compression, while highly crosslinked ones are entirely fragmented once a critical strain is reached."

Is this not a eventual direct effect of chlorine oxidizers or others? How would you explain where the oxidizers come from in a source water with none other than if using HCl. No solvents no heat...

"Transition metals such as copper and iron (often found in raw water or picked up from the plumbing by raw water) will catalyze the oxidation process, causing resin to fail much earlier than might be predicted"

Not to mention also the catalytic ability of these metal salts, or anything else in the water.
I guess what I wonder from your perspective is why hcl would have no relation to the observations. Honestly we might learn things.

 

[Garf]

"Resins in service are subject to oxidation from chlorine or other oxidants"
"As the effective level of cross-linker decreases, the resin swells and becomes softer. Reactive sites become further spaced out and selectivity of the resin drops, giving rise to higher hardness leakages and lower capacity"

Eventually to the point where they crack and break into smaller pieces. Ie breaking links or structure.

"With increasing strain level over 10%, a higher crosslinking leads to a stiffer behaviour of the particles. While slightly crosslinked (2.0 and 5.0 wt%) particles undergo plastic deformation with crazing and residual strain"

"Slightly crosslinked particles become permanently deformed after compression, while highly crosslinked ones are entirely fragmented once a critical strain is reached."

Is this not a eventual direct effect of chlorine oxidizers or others? How would you explain where the oxidizers come from in a source water with none other than if using HCl. No solvents no heat...

"Transition metals such as copper and iron (often found in raw water or picked up from the plumbing by raw water) will catalyze the oxidation process, causing resin to fail much earlier than might be predicted"

Not to mention also the catalytic ability of these metal salts, or anything else in the water.
I guess what I wonder from your perspective is why hcl would have no relation to the observations. Honestly we might learn things.

You may have missed the part where at work we use hydrochloric to regen, daily, for minimum of two years straight. You can by more expensive resins that last even longer, but my company is tight

Edit - I would also add that after two years the resin is not shot. It’s just a lot cheaper to get fresh, early, than risk plant failure.

What to Know About Ion Exchange Resin Regeneration - SAMCO Technologies

www.samcotech.com

Hydrochloric acid (HCl) is the most efficient and widely-used regenerant for decationization applications. Sulphuric acid (H2SO4), while a more affordable and less hazardous alternative to HCl, has a lower operating capacity, and can lead to calcium sulphate precipitation if applied in too high a concentration.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"Resins in service are subject to oxidation from chlorine or other oxidants"
"As the effective level of cross-linker decreases, the resin swells and becomes softer. Reactive sites become further spaced out and selectivity of the resin drops, giving rise to higher hardness leakages and lower capacity"

Eventually to the point where they crack and break into smaller pieces. Ie breaking links or structure.

"With increasing strain level over 10%, a higher crosslinking leads to a stiffer behaviour of the particles. While slightly crosslinked (2.0 and 5.0 wt%) particles undergo plastic deformation with crazing and residual strain"

"Slightly crosslinked particles become permanently deformed after compression, while highly crosslinked ones are entirely fragmented once a critical strain is reached."

Is this not a eventual direct effect of chlorine oxidizers or others? How would you explain where the oxidizers come from in a source water with none other than if using HCl. No solvents no heat...

"Transition metals such as copper and iron (often found in raw water or picked up from the plumbing by raw water) will catalyze the oxidation process, causing resin to fail much earlier than might be predicted"

Not to mention also the catalytic ability of these metal salts, or anything else in the water.
I guess what I wonder from your perspective is why hcl would have no relation to the observations. Honestly we might learn things.

I really have no idea why you are on and on about this. It is simply a wrong suggestion.

No one is suggesting to use tap water or anything with chlorine in it to regenerate DI resin.

None of the things you quote are wrong, and NONE of them suggest any reason to not use HCl.

The claim that HCl will have chlorine in it is just utterly false. Why would it? Seawater has huge amounts of chloride, just like HCl. It also has all of the catalytic elements you are mentioning. But there is no unexplained conversion of that chloride to chlorine.

 

[Fredinva]

to the OP,,,,, HUDUVUDU
The youtube video you posted originally is an excellent tutorial on regenerating mix-bed resin.
I'm in the same boat as you, so to speak, well water with a probable high concentration of CO2.
My TDS out of membrane is roughly 6 to 9. I now have two standard DI resin cartridges. My color changing resin cartridges would deplete after about 80 or 90 gals. Thats not very good at all!!
Thus, between reading here and my LFS owner who is familiar with our well water, we came to the CO2 conclusion. Just today I rerouted my RO water to a new Brute trash container, I threw in a small circulating pump and two air stones. In a day or two I will then push this RO water through my DI resin cartridges. I should see a significant improvement in my resin cartridges. I will report back when i get a chance.
Back to the video! Using the Lye and HCL is a chore, and I'm not sure if I'm saving that much money versus buying new resin. I will soon sit down with my receipts and calculate what it costs to regen one cartridge of resin. Anyway, I've got it formulated, based on the video: I use about 200 ml of Lye crystals mixed into my mix bed resin and 1000 to 1200ml of rodi water. Almost instantly the anion resin changes to BLUE and floats to the surface. The Tan cation resin remains on the bottom of vessel. The blue resin can easily be gently poured off while allowing the tan resin to remain. I run a rodi rinse about 4 times through the tan resin before treating with the HCL. (I've been using standard Muriatic acid as found at Lowes/HD.) on the last rinse of tan resin I leave about 400ml of rodi water with the resin, then add 200ml of the hcl. I let this sit for a few hours and occasionally mix a few times. The tan resin changes to a more orange or peachy color. The video mentions rinsing the resin 3 or 4 times.......I've been rinsing more like 5 to seven times. Just as a percaution. So, this weekend I'll give the new system a try and let you know.