LEDs, T5s and MHs for zoas discussion. What are your thoughts?

[themcnertney]

I think if it was really pointless we didn't have so many people joying here...
But yes, it's way too contradicting thread.
I'm glad I people can read it though.
Many had decided to use some T5s over their tanks because of what I and many others have posted here.

Grandis.

I'd like for one person to please chime in and say that this thread made them decided to use T5's over their tank because of what has been discussed. Don't worry Ill wait. This has become all about t5's and not about the positives and negatives of growing zoas under different lighting. My head hurts and its only 7:00am here on the east coast. I am going to go admire my LED only beautiful reef tank while others get lost in this discussion as I have. Good bye.

 

[teller]

You are so right!
This thread was supposed to be zoas under different lights.,...and no pictures..,.nothing..... Just another hate lighting thread by the same guy as usual.
Where are the beautiful zoas ?!!!!?

 

[A. grandis]

I'd like for one person to please chime in and say that this thread made them decided to use T5's over their tank because of what has been discussed. Don't worry Ill wait. This has become all about t5's and not about the positives and negatives of growing zoas under different lighting. My head hurts and its only 7:00am here on the east coast. I am going to go admire my LED only beautiful reef tank while others get lost in this discussion as I have. Good bye.

You are so right!
This thread was supposed to be zoas under different lights.,...and no pictures..,.nothing..... Just another hate lighting thread by the same guy as usual.
Where are the beautiful zoas ?!!!!?

This is your chance to show your beautiful zoas under your favorite light.
No problem with that.
Please go ahead and have fun.
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

... I'm going to repost here what I wrote before in another thread:
Please find time to read!

"I just think that we should offer to reef tanks the best artificial light available to supply the natural needs of the organisms we keep. I also think, and aways said, that the model for out reefs should be the sun. That is to compare the artificial light source with the natural light source. In my opinion those are MH/T5s for deeper than 22 - 24" tanks, and T5s for shallow tanks. LEDs can be implemented and be part of it, not the primary light source.
If people understand that they will have absolutely no problems in regards to light.

I believe in respecting what they choose to believe and buy, but I do not agree when they state and promote LEDs as better than MHs/T5s for growth and color. That is not an accurate information to pass to the next generation. many LED users tend to place LEDs above the other options.

Another point here is the wasted time in forums trying to figure out LED settings because it isn't working at all and people are "burning" corals all over the country, specially novices. That alone is a waste of money with corals and not humane in my point of view. With MHs and T5s that percentage is greatly minimized! That is only because people use LEDs as a primary source of light. The aquarium hobby is supposed to set an example of education and promote sustainability. MHs and T5s are proven the best in that sense.

In my perspective, if one chooses LEDs only for ANY reason, that person should know that there are OTHER better options out there to keep their cnidarians in better shape.
90% of the systems with LED shows that difference and should be considered as a week point in having such lights as primary light source. Instead, we have this weird attitude of many who claims that they have the best deal and electricity savings, and all that... Searching this forum and talking to serious aquarists will show what's the truth.

There are also so many LED "believers" that never used another light source and try to compare them or simply state whatever they want. I've tried all 3 types of lights and speak for myself. I also have many friends and have asked many important people, and called some of the companies in the trade to discuss their thoughts, just to hear that they actually agree with me.
The only companies that would be on top of the wall are the ones that prefers to sell only LEDs, for obvious reasons.

If they have the right to say that LEDs are better than MH/T5s, I do have the right to be opponent to that, right?

What about the many people all over the world that went back to their MH/T5s? We should take that in consideration too.
Specially when serious aquarium stores and corals farmers do that.

My actions aren't against the technology of LEDs per say, but against those who claim that LEDs are actually BETTER than MHs or the T5s, when I think it's totally the opposite. We all know about the famous PDF comparing T5s far away from the water surface with their LEDs at the same height. T5s aren't design to be used more than 11" from the water source, so that isn't a fair comparison, right? Selling and using such excuse don't sound good at all to me.
I'm trying to show people that the other options are out there and I try to tell them not to suffocate those options, please.
I'm tired to be fired because of my recommendations. That isn't fair!!

If you look threads all over this forum you will actually see people trying to prove me wrong in that sense and that isn't the way to go. The many people who went back to their T5s and MHs are normally ignored by those LED extremists.
MH/T5 users are normally banned out of conversations or vetoed of any expression, in the name of LED technology.
Many of the users actually recommend LEDs as a primary source of light to beginners that are looking for a simple and efficient way to lit a tank. Many other go to the point of NOT recommending T5s for a new tank?!? I recommend T5s! Is that anything wrong with that? Who is the extremist here?
Take a look:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/pls-recommend-a-light-for-reef-and-fish.330989/

I aways said that I'm not against LEDs, and I'm not. I'm just against it's use as a primary light source for reefs and the fact that some try to wrongly compare their LEDs with halides or T5s in regards to growth and colors.

I'm also against those who gives priority to friendship and partnership in the name of technology or money in the trade and out of the trade, and really don't even believe in the concept that they are preaching because in the end of their hearts they know that MHs and T5s are the best. If you tai to them out the "stage" you will know, my friend!
I call those people to give up already and proclaim the facts.
Proclaim the truth, and that is ok. This isn't a war! We are all in the same boat. Just a hobby!
To me that should have an end now.
Expression of thoughts and opinions shouldn't be banned in any way, but facts are facts.
And I'm not alone here. There are many others that think like me, but they don't think it's worthy to fight or they don't want to get fired. I think it is worthy.

The vision I have is to put MHs and T5s back in their places!
The time spent to improve technology, marketing and research should be applied to all artificial light sources in equal forms and shapes, not confined to the LEDs, like it is at this date!

All 3 types of lights aren't going to change their nature. They are what they are.
Primary source of lights IMO should be MH/s and T5s with proven results.
LEDs are in their trials, but they can be applied on the side.
Again, please note that LEDs do have room in the hobby and that room is as supplemental lights IMO for obvious reasons.

If the LED manufactures understand the place LEDs should have in the trade, they would make much better LED fixtures allowing that technology to be just a supplemental/optional light. That is the way to go!!! But if they keep fighting and thinking that we should have as a primary light source, we all loose. Waste of time.

There is also a strong movement against MHs and T5s that needs to be stopped now.
The hype is all over, and companies want too take advantage of the money circulating.
Many of the people who call me an extremist are actually LED lovers and MH/T5 haters, therefore they are LED extremists.
To change MHs/T5s for LEDs and say that they are getting much better results is silly. Specially over deeper tanks.
The only excuse is the heat transfer and that is the main choice for the exchange. But results aren't the same in the long run. I'm sorry...
They are actually sacrificing the health of the organisms to a point, in order to justify the chiller not running or something like that.

I do understand the choices we make are different, and to be respected. I expect to be respected the same way in what I choose to use and recommend. That's what free of speech is all about, right?
I prefer to be called a MH/T5 lover than a LED hater, please.

This is a great forum and I hope we all understand my thoughts as they are.
No labels cause that's not gonna change any of us.

Cheers,
Grandis."

FROM:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tullio-dell-aquila-the-facts-of-light-macna-2017.331112/

I also seriously think that some of you guys aren't watching the last 2 videos with Mr. Tullio, or ignoring it, which is sad.
Grandis.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

how many hours a day do you run your t5s?

 

[A. grandis]

how many hours a day do you run your t5s?

9 hours total.
Grandis.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

is 4 tubes enough?

 

[A. grandis]

Depends.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Depends on what?

 

[A. grandis]

On the dimensions of your tank and what you're going to keep.
Write your specifics and I'll be happy to try to help you.
Grandis.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Zoas on a 40 gallon breeder 3 foot tank

 

[A. grandis]

You can have either the 6 or the 8 bulb fixtures over the 40 breeder.
The 40 breeder is about 18" wide and the 8 bulb fixture is about 17.5 inches.
The 6 bulb would also work and it's 13.4 wide and enough for zoas only.
If I would keep SPS corals I would prefer the 8 bulb fixture.
Grandis.

 

[DSC reef]

Reefing is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. Plenty of tanks with leds I've seen that will blow my tank away in color and growth and they are lit with only led lighting. World wide corals tanks are amazing, switched to led lighting. Half the people you "debate" with were big halide users. You tell people you don't want to be called an led hater but in the same sentence you call them extremists? I get your passionate but it clouds the points you try to make IMO. There's no movement to get rid of halides. To state that leds are hurting the health of corals is far fetched. Use what you want but don't hate on others choices as well. I'm a halide/T5 user and will be for a long time but I also know and seen what leds can do.

 

[sde1500]

Huge long post full of key words such as "I think" "IMO" etc. PURE opinion

I especially liked the line "To change MHs/T5s for LEDs and say that they are getting much better results is silly. Specially over deeper tanks." How can you POSSIBLY say that? You actually think someone who swapped out lights on their OWN tank, and believe they are seeing better results is wrong? Based on what? Sure, their results are anecdotal, but at least they have that. You literally have no ground to stand on with that statement.

I have only used LED to grow corals in my tank. So I can't offer an opinion, because lets face it, that is all these posts are, on other light sources. I used t5 on my nano fowlr, but didn't use it for corals. How can you flat out call others "LED Extremists", which is absurd btw, at the same time making blanket unfounded statements like I highlighted above? You flat out said someone who states that they see better results switching from MH/T5 to LED is wrong. So you saw better results going back to MH/T5, that is great. But the plethora of tanks out there having great results with LED proves that all lights work. You making a post to "discuss" all light sources, then constantly saying LED won't work well shows that the "extremists" would be correct in calling you a hater.

 

[happyhourhero]

The fact that the wheels are spinning on this thread again is sad. I can summarize and save folks the time.

People present cases of LED being great as a single light source > OP ignores the success, posts long anti LED rant > people counter with more success > OP ignores the success, posts another long anti LED rant > continues until people have had enough and thread dies.

I have also never seen anyone trying to get people to stop using T5 or MH. Not sure where that came from. I do see someone who is trying to get people to stop using LED for whatever reason though.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

FWIW, I don't think English is his primary language. This may be why there are so many misunderstandings.

 

[3mm3]

I'm going to dive on into this conversation and give my experience. I absolutely love zoanthids an palythoas. Kept them for many years.
My last setup was Led and that ran for over 2 years. I had minimal growth. Not blaming that on the light as it was a very low nutrient setup but received regular broadcast feedings.

With Led I noted Two things over Two Years:
1. Palys where reaching for light.
2. Palys and zoanthids over time lost their vivid colors.

New setup now. I ditched Led as I like to keep shallow water corals and clams and Led seriously lack a broad light spectrum. (manufactures are slowly changing this I have noticed)

Now with metal halide I have noticed these changes:
1. Explosion in colony growth.
2. Palys are no longer reaching for light.
3. Vivid colors are returning.
4. New colors I didn't know existed are appearing.

Keep in mind I have had all of these zoas and palys for a long time.
Pictures coming.

Here is a very plain speckled paly I snagged for free a couple years ago.

Picture taken July 2017 under LED lighting.

Here is from tonight under metal halide. This is getting hammered with Par.

It has been slowly gaining some new colors. Also can notice it no longer is reaching for light.


Next up is another. Sorry but this was the only picture I could dig up from Led. Paly is bottom right of picture.

Taken July 2017 under Led.

This picture taken under Halide Only last month. As you can see Vivid color and no longer reaching for the light.

Do I believe Led can grow zoanthids and Palythoa? Absolutely.
I just have not seen anything personally color them up better than halide can do.


And here is my favorite paly. Picture taken sometime back in 2008 or so. Lighting was 10k Halide xm if I remember right.

My avatar.

 

[A. grandis]

Reefing is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. Plenty of tanks with leds I've seen that will blow my tank away in color and growth and they are lit with only led lighting. World wide corals tanks are amazing, switched to led lighting. Half the people you "debate" with were big halide users. You tell people you don't want to be called an led hater but in the same sentence you call them extremists? I get your passionate but it clouds the points you try to make IMO. There's no movement to get rid of halides. To state that leds are hurting the health of corals is far fetched. Use what you want but don't hate on others choices as well. I'm a halide/T5 user and will be for a long time but I also know and seen what leds can do.

Huge long post full of key words such as "I think" "IMO" etc. PURE opinion

I especially liked the line "To change MHs/T5s for LEDs and say that they are getting much better results is silly. Specially over deeper tanks." How can you POSSIBLY say that? You actually think someone who swapped out lights on their OWN tank, and believe they are seeing better results is wrong? Based on what? Sure, their results are anecdotal, but at least they have that. You literally have no ground to stand on with that statement.

I have only used LED to grow corals in my tank. So I can't offer an opinion, because lets face it, that is all these posts are, on other light sources. I used t5 on my nano fowlr, but didn't use it for corals. How can you flat out call others "LED Extremists", which is absurd btw, at the same time making blanket unfounded statements like I highlighted above? You flat out said someone who states that they see better results switching from MH/T5 to LED is wrong. So you saw better results going back to MH/T5, that is great. But the plethora of tanks out there having great results with LED proves that all lights work. You making a post to "discuss" all light sources, then constantly saying LED won't work well shows that the "extremists" would be correct in calling you a hater.

The fact that the wheels are spinning on this thread again is sad. I can summarize and save folks the time.

People present cases of LED being great as a single light source > OP ignores the success, posts long anti LED rant > people counter with more success > OP ignores the success, posts another long anti LED rant > continues until people have had enough and thread dies.

I have also never seen anyone trying to get people to stop using T5 or MH. Not sure where that came from. I do see someone who is trying to get people to stop using LED for whatever reason though.

Thanks guys for coming in.
I'm sorry if I've said something that hurt you!
I didn't mean that at all!
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

FWIW, I don't think English is his primary language. This may be why there are so many misunderstandings.

LOL! I was never good at ELA and now I'm too old to go back to school!
LOL!!
Sorry!!
Grandis!

 

[A. grandis]

I'm going to dive on into this conversation and give my experience. I absolutely love zoanthids an palythoas. Kept them for many years.
My last setup was Led and that ran for over 2 years. I had minimal growth. Not blaming that on the light as it was a very low nutrient setup but received regular broadcast feedings.

With Led I noted Two things over Two Years:
1. Palys where reaching for light.
2. Palys and zoanthids over time lost their vivid colors.

New setup now. I ditched Led as I like to keep shallow water corals and clams and Led seriously lack a broad light spectrum. (manufactures are slowly changing this I have noticed)

Now with metal halide I have noticed these changes:
1. Explosion in colony growth.
2. Palys are no longer reaching for light.
3. Vivid colors are returning.
4. New colors I didn't know existed are appearing.

Keep in mind I have had all of these zoas and palys for a long time.
Pictures coming.

Here is a very plain speckled paly I snagged for free a couple years ago.

Picture taken July 2017 under LED lighting.

Here is from tonight under metal halide. This is getting hammered with Par.

It has been slowly gaining some new colors. Also can notice it no longer is reaching for light.


Next up is another. Sorry but this was the only picture I could dig up from Led. Paly is bottom right of picture.

Taken July 2017 under Led.

This picture taken under Halide Only last month. As you can see Vivid color and no longer reaching for the light.

Do I believe Led can grow zoanthids and Palythoa? Absolutely.
I just have not seen anything personally color them up better than halide can do.


And here is my favorite paly. Picture taken sometime back in 2008 or so. Lighting was 10k Halide xm if I remember right.

My avatar.

Thanks, 3mm3!
Please post some more nice halide pictures!
The fixtures too!!
Aloha,
Grandis.