Metal Halides Making a Come Back? Don’t call it a come back?

[Hans-Werner]

I would apprecite if you would take some time to share some tips to those who would be interested to learn from you an the information of your LED fixtures. many people are struggling with LEDs and still want to use them, so...

Originally I wanted to make some more recent pictures to show the growth, that it continues to grow quite well in the same regular way and another colony grown from a frag under a different LED bar also, but the camera ran our of battery. I have put a note into my backpack in the compartment for my lunch.

I have to say I do not have many special tips. I work in the business, Tropic Marin. Since I am doing the product development I am more interested in the salt and chemical additive side and less interested in the technical side. Nevertheless I find the physiological and biological effects of light and its biological prerequisites very interesting.

So please forgive me if I do not know much details about the fixtures.

I don't like too much blue but a more natural look. I think shallow water Acroporas may have more problems under very blue LED light.

The LED fixture under which the Acropora in the image grows is a Cyrex which is 50 cm/20 inches long and it sits cross on the 60 cm deep tank. The fixture looks different from the ones I found in the web. It has 2 long openings in the mid and 8 circular openings on both sides in the metal body for the LEDs. I don't know the exact type name, I got it from a colleague who got it from our sales company some years ago.

All other LED fixtures I still use were remainders I got quite cheap from our sales company. The brand is NEMOLIGHT, type Marine LEDs. Since some of the power supply units and some fixtures failed I am running out of fixtures now and will have look for other ones soon. I am really bad in estimating time spans but we have them some years already. They saved us more money in T5 tubes alone than we did pay for them and they give a very coninuous light. This is one of the main advanteges in my eyes. In T5 and MH you can virtually see how they loose power until you change the tubes or bulbs.

With an Apogee I measured 250 µmol/m2 * s at the Acropora millepora in the image.

To be continued.

 

[A. grandis]

Originally I wanted to make some more recent pictures to show the growth, that it continues to grow quite well in the same regular way and another colony grown from a frag under a different LED bar also, but the camera ran our of battery. I have put a note into my backpack in the compartment for my lunch.

I have to say I do not have many special tips. I work in the business, Tropic Marin. Since I am doing the product development I am more interested in the salt and chemical additive side and less interested in the technical side. Nevertheless I find the physiological and biological effects of light and its biological prerequisites very interesting.

So please forgive me if I do not know much details about the fixtures.

I don't like too much blue but a more natural look. I think shallow water Acroporas may have more problems under very blue LED light.

The LED fixture under which the Acropora in the image grows is a Cyrex which is 50 cm/20 inches long and it sits cross on the 60 cm deep tank. The fixture looks different from the ones I found in the web. It has 2 long openings in the mid and 8 circular openings on both sides in the metal body for the LEDs. I don't know the exact type name, I got it from a colleague who got it from our sales company some years ago.

All other LED fixtures I still use were remainders I got quite cheap from our sales company. The brand is NEMOLIGHT, type Marine LEDs. Since some of the power supply units and some fixtures failed I am running out of fixtures now and will have look for other ones soon. I am really bad in estimating time spans but we have them some years already. They saved us more money in T5 tubes alone than we did pay for them and they give a very coninuous light. This is one of the main advanteges in my eyes. In T5 and MH you can virtually see how they loose power until you change the tubes or bulbs.

With an Apogee I measured 250 µmol/m2 * s at the Acropora millepora in the image.

To be continued.

Ok... thanks.

From post #135:

In my experience it is vice versa: While some corals like Montipora digitata and Acropora millepora grow quite unnatural under MH and T5 they form much more branches and more sturdy growth under LED. The natural cusion or table shape of A. millepora is in my experience more beautiful and regular under LED.

I prefer a more even distribution of the LED.

I am curious to see some pictures of your Acropora millepora and the Montipora digitata colonies under metal halides, showing what you referred as unnatural growth. I'm sorry, but I don't agree that your Acropora millepora structural formation in the picture you posted shows the natural tabling shape you mentioned. I wonder how much worse could a colony of A. millepora be in that regard under halides/T5s and the reason why.
I still think your colony under LEDs is not as bad in comparison to many others we normally see under LEDs, though.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Hans-Werner]

"But the lime and red based specimen look much better under blue light, not as neat as in the ocean, but pretty good. Unfortunately most of the time the colony shape is way off track, due to lack of powerful flow.

Captive colonies of Acropora millepora have a very irregular shape in aquariums"

This is from the article you have linked. It is not stated under which kind of light each of the colonies with regular or very irregular shape was grown.

I just wanted to show how they may look under LED, even with quite low flow and power consumption (including lighting).

The first one is the same as in the image in the post above, just to show it is growing. The image in the post above is taken 2023-07-14, these ones are taken today, 2024-04-19, growth in 9 months under the CYREX lamp.

The second image is a frag of the same coral (frags are the same clone) grown under the NEMOLIGHT.

The PAR measured yesterday was 250 µmol/m2 * s just over the one in the first image with an Apogee quantum meter.

We do not have metal halides any more for maybe 10 years. Maybe you can show me a regular one grown under MH. The power consumption of the lighting is half as much as at the time when we had MH and T5.

Phosphate concentration is ca. 0.6 ppm in both tanks, nitrate concentration is low. I would have to check if someone is interested.

Trace element, calcium and alkalinity supply is All-For-Reef, a few fish that are fed well, nothing else.

 

[Reefing102]

Not trying to throw a wrench in the growth forms, as I’m sure lighting has an affect, but I’m curious if part of the issue is the vast majority of reefers no longer allow their corals to grow out into huge colonies as they frag them the first chance they get which likely causes different growth patterns. And also many reefers don’t have an adequate size tank to grow true colonies (like the wilds shown above).

I’m also curious if the growth we are seeing is in fact how immature colonies grow in the wild until they develop enough to form what we commonly perceive as a mature colony?

Again I’m not discounting lighting affecting growth patterns but there’s likely many unconsidered factors in the overall growth formation of coral that we can’t replicate in our tanks

 

[spsick]

"But the lime and red based specimen look much better under blue light, not as neat as in the ocean, but pretty good. Unfortunately most of the time the colony shape is way off track, due to lack of powerful flow.

Captive colonies of Acropora millepora have a very irregular shape in aquariums"

This is from the article you have linked. It is not stated under which kind of light each of the colonies with regular or very irregular shape was grown.

I just wanted to show how they may look under LED, even with quite low flow and power consumption (including lighting).

The first one is the same as in the image in the post above, just to show it is growing. The image in the post above is taken 2023-07-14, these ones are taken today, 2024-04-19, growth in 9 months under the CYREX lamp.

The second image is a frag of the same coral (frags are the same clone) grown under the NEMOLIGHT.

The PAR measured yesterday was 250 µmol/m2 * s just over the one in the first image with an Apogee quantum meter.

We do not have metal halides any more for maybe 10 years. Maybe you can show me a regular one grown under MH. The power consumption of the lighting is half as much as at the time when we had MH and T5.

Phosphate concentration is ca. 0.6 ppm in both tanks, nitrate concentration is low. I would have to check if someone is interested.

Trace element, calcium and alkalinity supply is All-For-Reef, a few fish that are fed well, nothing else.

.6ppm?? Not .06?

Are you providing supplemental addition to get it that high? Those look like very healthy colonies with all of the tips growing!

 

[Hans-Werner]

.6ppm?? Not .06?

Are you providing supplemental addition to get it that high? Those look like very healthy colonies with all of the tips growing!

Yes, in a trial developing our (Tropic Marin) phosphate addtives Phos-Start and Phos-Feed over more than a year, starting Mai '21, I raised phosphate concentration and stopped at 0.43 and > 0.6 ppm respectively in two systems in June '22. Recent ICP results have been around 200 ppb P which translates to 600 ppb PO4 or 0.6 ppm PO4. No typo. All corals and fish are doing very well.

It is what I am saying, low phosphate concentrations are worse than high phosphate concentrations. Most negative effects attributed to high phosphate concentrations, like browning of corals, are rather nitrate or nitrogen effects. When I am telling, sometimes I notice readers think I am telling tales but I am just reporting what I see.

In a separate shallow (30 cm/12 inches) tank I have one tenth the phosphate concentration with the same care and relatively more corals and AFR dosing. Due to sitting closely below the water's surface the corals are a bit brighter and maybe grow a little bit faster but otherwise there is not much difference.

Who else is doing such trials with single nutrients? I am doing experiments with varying and different nutrients for nearly 3 decades now, starting mid 90s.

 

[Pod_01]

Phosphate concentration is ca. 0.6 ppm in both tanks, nitrate concentration is low. I would have to check if someone is interested.

I am curious what the NO3 and maybe NO2 concentration are?

I was also surprised with the 0.6ppm. I know you recommended 0.1-0.15ppm as a general rule or evolving rule. This is orthophosphate recommendation so maybe not the same.

Also on a side note what does the titration PO4 test show vs. ICP P/calculated PO4.

 

[Borat]

I’ve heard that MH are starting to get used more commonly. Anecdotally I’ve heard that growers in particular have started to use them more commonly. What do you guys think?

i agree, i use MH 0% more commonly than i did before.

 

[spsick]

Yes, in a trial developing our (Tropic Marin) phosphate addtives Phos-Start and Phos-Feed over more than a year, starting Mai '21, I raised phosphate concentration and stopped at 0.43 and > 0.6 ppm respectively in two systems in June '22. Recent ICP results have been around 200 ppb P which translates to 600 ppb PO4 or 0.6 ppm PO4. No typo. All corals and fish are doing very well.

It is what I am saying, low phosphate concentrations are worse than high phosphate concentrations. Most negative effects attributed to high phosphate concentrations, like browning of corals, are rather nitrate or nitrogen effects. When I am telling, sometimes I notice readers think I am telling tales but I am just reporting what I see.

In a separate shallow (30 cm/12 inches) tank I have one tenth the phosphate concentration with the same care and relatively more corals and AFR dosing. Due to sitting closely below the water's surface the corals are a bit brighter and maybe grow a little bit faster but otherwise there is not much difference.

Who else is doing such trials with single nutrients? I am doing experiments with varying and different nutrients for nearly 3 decades now, starting mid 90s.

Thanks Hans. I take it there is no concerns of overdosing bromide and fluoride with this additive? Are they quickly consumed?

Sorry this is sidetracking the conversation but we don’t get to see the fruits of your labor often

 

[Hans-Werner]

I am curious what the NO3 and maybe NO2 concentration are?

I was also surprised with the 0.6ppm. I know you recommended 0.1-0.15ppm as a general rule or evolving rule. This is orthophosphate recommendation so maybe not the same.

Also on a side note what does the titration PO4 test show vs. ICP P/calculated PO4.

There is not much difference, as generally at higher concentrations, between orthophosphate (test kit, photometer) and total phosphate (ICP). The difference is more pronounced at lower concentrations.

The chem lab has already left for weekend, we have Friday afternoon. So I will check for nitrate next week but I guess it is between 1 and 3 ppm.

When testing new products I have to "overdo" it to see whether I get adverse effects at some overdosage or overconcentration. This is how I slowly got to 0.43 and 0.6 ppm and still saw no clearly adverse effects. Since I never saw the necessity to use adsorbers to lower the concentrations they are still there.

I recommend 0.1 to 0.15 ppm since there is not much difference to my 0.6 ppm. I mean, if I get reefers to accept these concentrations of 0.1 to 0.15 ppm this is already a big progress to me. I don't want to exaggerate it ...

 

[Hans-Werner]

Thanks Hans. I take it there is no concerns of overdosing bromide and fluoride with this additive? Are they quickly consumed?

Sorry this is sidetracking the conversation but we don’t get to see the fruits of your labor often

If you mean All-For-Reef, fluoride is rather underdosed and since bromide is more long-lived than iodine it is quite stable. Iodine is maybe the most critical element dosed, but generally quite a wide range of iodine concentrations is tolerated by (nearly?) all organisms in reef tanks.

 

[djf91]

 

[A. grandis]

We do not have metal halides any more for maybe 10 years. Maybe you can show me a regular one grown under MH. The power consumption of the lighting is half as much as at the time when we had MH and T5.

I was under the impression that you could post a picture of your Acropora millepora under metal halides showing that weird growth you mentioned in comparison to the one you showed under LEDs, but I assume that won't be posible. That's fine. I will post here some pictures of a metal halide thread showing the growth of many different Acropora spp. under metal halides to illustrate in response to your request.

Show your Metal Halides tank!

Might not be alot of you out there, but still intrested in seeing tanks with MH lights. Maybe we can get a good thread going out of this. Please! please! please! don't make this Led vrs MH argument thread.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[A. grandis]

Not trying to throw a wrench in the growth forms, as I’m sure lighting has an affect, but I’m curious if part of the issue is the vast majority of reefers no longer allow their corals to grow out into huge colonies as they frag them the first chance they get which likely causes different growth patterns. And also many reefers don’t have an adequate size tank to grow true colonies (like the wilds shown above).

Yup!

I’m also curious if the growth we are seeing is in fact how immature colonies grow in the wild until they develop enough to form what we commonly perceive as a mature colony?

Corals in the wild will have their growth according to the environment they settle in. Changes in that environment, predation and natural phenomena are responsible for some of the changes and adaptations. Sometimes those changes are very evident and sometimes not. When the coral colony have no or very little disturbances during the growth process it will show that perfect homogeneous colony structure. Even in a very competitive environment corals will most likely show great coverage and homogeneous growth. Some colonies will spread on the rocks first then stat to produce branches, others will produce branches sooner, it all depends on the species and the environment. The same will happen in our tanks when given attention to the needs of changes during the course of the growth.

Again I’m not discounting lighting affecting growth patterns but there’s likely many unconsidered factors in the overall growth formation of coral that we can’t replicate in our tanks

Lighting, flow, stable chemistry.

 

[dochoot]

Keep thinking inevitably I will migrate to LED. 8 foot tank and just got a deal on 4 bulbs for $250. So easy to do. Figure LED technology improving year to year. My 2 concerns are growth and longevity of the LED. Maybe both moot points with current LED.

 

[A. grandis]

Now a classic tank that most people here know I love for so many years and have posted as one of the best simple examples to be followed, showing some nice table formations, even with some species called "deep water acros"!! All colonies of different species of corals in this video will show their growth structures homogeneously, from tables to branching/staghorns and encrusting. Full spectrum light just feeds the vitality in any reef system in such a way that even the so called "low par deep water Acros" show their amazing glory!
This system was a 215 gallon, with 4 X 250W Phoenix DE 14K bulbs. Many people would consider impossible to have such intensity of light over a 125gallon today. Not impossible with metal halides! The quality of spectrum and proper distribution of those photons provide the optimal illumination over that tank for the health an homogeneous growth of those colonies. That's very similar to what they receive in nature. Notice the natural look of the tank overall an the amazing pigment formation. Remember that the video has a poor quality in comparison to what we see around today and it most likely doesn't do any justice to what it really was in person! Still, a masterpiece, produced by the energy from metal halides and designed/maintained by the late Jake Adams!
Don't worry about the music... after you watch it 10+ times you will actually like it! LOL!

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

I didn't read all of this thread, but I'll throw my experience in here as well.

I've used both and was just using MH and noticed that you can definitely "nurse" maricultured corals back from bleaching easier under halides. I think it replicates the environment they came from a bit better.

With that said, to make a long story short. I had a unknown, what I assume was a bacterial infection, that quickly wiped out most all of my colonies. It happened quickly and nothing I did stopped it. Not even a good dose of Cipro touched it in time. I think it eradicated it over time, but by that time it was too late.

So fast forward to 8 months ago. Lost all colonies, had a super small piece of an ORA juicy grape that was still attached to a rock where I had to break off the dead colony and throw it away. I didn't think it would amount to anything, just left over.

Nothing wrong with my Halides at all, loved them, but I had no use for them. I removed them, boxed them up, and left LEDs only on the tank. I was paying attention to the tank daily, almost like a full time job and parameters were kept in the 10 to 20 nitrate range and 0.02 to 0.08 phosphate range.

After they all died, I stopped doing a lot with the tank as there were virtually no corals, only fish. My nitrates skyrocketed to 60 and my phosphate went to something like 1.0 to 1.5. The only reason I checked the levels was I noticed the ORA Juicy Grape Acro had come back like crazy! It went from literally a small speck that looked like coraline algae on the rock, to a full colony in about 6 or 7 months.

Moral of the story, low levels of nitrate and phosphate are not good. You don't want them too high of course, but I think they need to be higher than people think. The ocean is 0 basically, well that's because there is a constant flow of nutrient rich water for the corals. In your tank, that's not the case so we need to have higher nutrient levels to make sure they don't starve.

We know that higher light levels need higher flow, higher nutrients, etc. MH vs LED, well I still have LED only right now and it's working out just fine. Do I think MH grows faster? Yes, it certainly helps, but I've had success both ways. MH and T5 is the easy button for Acros as long as you can keep your flow and water chemistry correct. The time to stop starving corals is now and quit preaching 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate. In my experience, acropora do just fine with higher levels as long as they are proportionate to each other.

 

[djf91]

Moral of the story, low levels of nitrate and phosphate are not good. You don't want them too high of course, but I think they need to be higher than people think. The ocean is 0 basically, well that's because there is a constant flow of nutrient rich water for the corals. In your tank, that's not the case so we need to have higher nutrient levels to make sure they don't starve.

Can you explain this to me? What do you by “nutrient rich water” but they’re close to 0 at the same time?

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Can you explain this to me? What do you by “nutrient rich water” but they’re close to 0 at the same time?

I think you read it wrong. I said in the ocean, the readings of Nitrate and Phosphate is 0 and the corals thrive because of the amount of fish waste, etc that the ocean constantly brings in.

That's not the case in our aquariums so we have to provide it.

 

[djf91]

I think you read it wrong. I said in the ocean, the readings of Nitrate and Phosphate is 0 and the corals thrive because of the amount of fish waste, etc that the ocean constantly brings in.

That's not the case in our aquariums so we have to provide it.

I still feel like we can provide it. Heavy in heavy, heavy out. The corals still prefer ammonia to nitrate. I still think the ideal environment is heavy feeding, with maybe also the addition of phytoplankton, zooplankton, particulate food but still maintain residual nitrates and phosphates close to 0 and within the right ratio to each other.