Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Waterjockey]

The statement that corals sliming is good is one of the "big," questions posed, but not answered. There seems to be an assumption that it's positive. Smarter people than me think perhaps it stresses corals and is a natural protective barrier. There are several people who have been bubbling for some period of time now without reported ill effects, but this doesn't mean any positive benefit is occurring. I want to believe there may be benefit but honestly it just seems counter intuitive! My brain cannot make since that bubbling brings in nutrition, O2, or gets rid of toxin

Thanks for the reply! Is it just these threads that the claim of coral "sliming" is a benefit? I can't seem to find conversations elsewhere this being discussed as a good or bad thing. I've found a few articles relating the qty slime per m^3 reef in various oceans, slime makeup analysis, etc....but no-where outside of these threads can I find previous mention of this actually being good.

Cheers!

 

[Lasse]

Somewhere I read that one of the proposed feed pathways for at least mushrooms are bacteria which grow in the mucus. There was talk that they were a symbiotic relationship also between corals and bacteria.

I can not find the source right now - someone else who has it?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Liquidangel22]

One question more - do you dose an organic carbons source?

I seek for an explanation of your nitrate measurements. 40 ppm nitrate does not disappear during a few days – no way.

However – most nitrate test are sensitive for nitrite and can show very high nitrate reading if there is even low concentrations of nitrite in the water. If your bio filter had a high organic load prior to the cleaning it could have taken down your nitrification rate and low amount of nitrite can have arisen. The cleaning put things in order again – nitrite level down to 0 and not disturbing your nitrate reading which show low concentrations again.


Sincerely Lasse

I have a mini skimmer, purigen, , bioballs, and a stock filter cartridge. It does have carbon in the stock filter, but I've always had that. I had replaced the cartridge about a week prior to the water change and cleaning. It's a 29 gal biocube so I don't keep much in it as far as a bioload, other than the CUC I have 2 clowns and a BTA. Hope that answers your question

 

[Terry4505]

So here are my non-scientific, anecdotal observations from a little over a week bubbling for 4 hours a night.

• Corals look "lighter" or paler
• There is weird bubbly/stringy bacteria collecting in the skimmer section of the sump
• The water looks visibly clearer
• The rocks are visibly cleaner

I am getting weird PH spikes at 2 am and 4 am, when the bubbler comes on and goes off:

Full disclosure, I also moved the sump to the basement last week, so I don't know what difference that makes. I am using a wood air stone in the intake for the return pump.

The basement sump:

You can see the airstone in the pump intake.
I am generally pretty skeptical of many of the proposed benefits.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So here are my non-scientific, anecdotal observations from a little over a week bubbling for 4 hours a night.

• Corals look "lighter" or paler
• There is weird bubbly/stringy bacteria collecting in the skimmer section of the sump
• The water looks visibly clearer
• The rocks are visibly cleaner

I am getting weird PH spikes at 2 am and 4 am, when the bubbler comes on and goes off:

Full disclosure, I also moved the sump to the basement last week, so I don't know what difference that makes. I am using a wood air stone in the intake for the return pump.

The basement sump:

You can see the airstone in the pump intake.
I am generally pretty skeptical of many of the proposed benefits.

The pH spikes are probably electrical interference. How are you controlling the bubbling?

 

[Terry4505]

Apex

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure why it is causing the interference, but if you want to track it down, plugging the air pump into a different outlet might be instructive. Physically moving the pump and cord away from the pH probe and its cords may also help.

Is it just an air pump that is timed, or is there any device actually touching the water?

 

[Terry4505]

It's just an air pump that is using an open outlet on the Apex as a timer.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Terry,

Do you have a pH graph from before as well to compare? Giving both would be more than anyone else seems to have provided so far has there been an overall increase in average pH?

P.S. I have been following your build on RC for a while now, it's looking wicked.

 

[Terry4505]

Thanks,

No, I don't. Because I moved the sump to the basement and turned off the Apex, I lost that data. There has been a very slight increase in overall PH. Like .1 on average.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

No worries. The starting observations you have made look good. Hopefully the pH spike issue is easy to fix.

 

[klp]

IMO the demand for a strong flow in a coral aquarium is mostly because the photosynthesis and the following large production of oxygen. Oxygen mostly leaves the algae/animal through diffusion. The rate of this diffusion depends on area and the concentration differences at the microenvironment at the interface of the algae/animal and the water. A strong flow break the microenvironment and guarantee the lowest possible oxygen level in the water just in the interface between water and algae/animal during light period (and photosynthesis) . This counteract high oxygen build up in the tissue of algae/animal and minimizes the risk of oxygen radicals. During nights (no light) when the algae/animal need oxygen for “breathing” – a strong flow guarantee highest possible oxygen level in the microenvironment between the algae/animal and the water.

IMO – much light – much flow - no tricks break that formula.

Something else to think of – polyp expansion – larger contact area between the animal and water.

Sincerely Lasse

I believe the quote below is part of what you are saying.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1538755/
“It should be pointed out that during the day, coral mucus and tissue are supersaturated with oxygen because of endosymbiotic algal photosynthesis (12), so that the presence of strict anaerobes is unlikely.”

The coral mucus is supersaturated with oxygen by day due to endosymbiotic algal photosynthesis. Is this a mechanism to keep oxygen in the mucus for the bacteria, the coral or both when the sun goes down? Possibly. Does the oxygen level go down in the mucus at night in corals on the reef or in the aquarium? Without photosynthesis I would vote for yes. Would oxygen augmentation be healthy for the animals? I would venture a yes whatever means are employed. What is the purpose of this supersaturated oxygen would be a good side question beyond my scope. It could well be dual purpose for both the mucus bacteria and the corals itself.

We know that reverse lighting in the sump/refugium from algae provide oxygen that is missing when the lights go out. Micro bubbles would facilitate high oxygen levels assuming that fresh oxygenated air is used. Supplying increased oxygen would be "natural" as sea water is vast and I suspect oxygen levels stay fairly constant in sea water on the reefs depending on currents/tides which argues for circulation absolutely needed. How strong a circulation is needed if oxygen is kept at a very high level through micro bubbles/reverse lighting is another question.

The mucus that is shed partly dissolves into nutrients for the reef a continual process.
https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/springer-journals/bacterial-growth-on-coral-mucus-u7Q3cu4DWU

In a closed system how much current is needed when microbubbles may (I say may) substitute for part or most of what strong flow accomplishes in the aquarium including detritus removal and helping the corals shed mucus is yet to be seen. The use of micro bubbles may (I say may) argue for the possibility of reduced water flow.

Could micro bubbles stop old tank syndrome from happening or reverse it due to a continuing cleaner tank, cleaner than the hobbyist can clean? If old tank syndrome means an accumulation of wastes that have built to a critical level then using micro bubbles is a good possibility in at least some circumstances. This would assume the micro bubbles could get to all the rock if the "pile it wider and higher" method without regard to water flow is used. Micro bubbles would be of little effect on a deep sand bed issue other tan a once a day tank scrubbing. Side benefits of reduced flow would be subsequent electrical savings through smaller pumps and their lower purchase prices and depending if you use submersible pumps less heat added to the water.

Without any of the questions I raise the main benefits for those who are successful with micro bubbles appears to be a cleaner tank, maintaining optimum oxygen levels when using fresh air and increased outward signs that the corals are "happier". These are goals we all share so micro bubbles to me bears investigating. The proof is in the "pudding" and the ingredients of the "pudding" have changed dramatically over the years tasting better and better with the changes. This may be one of those major "flavor" enhancers to the pudding. Time will tell.

 

[McMullen]

Dang, now I gotta go make pudding...J E L L O


Some very interesting thoughts!! I've not yet read all the articles. Gonna take some time to digest all this!!

 

[klp]

Dang, now I gotta go make pudding...J E L L O


Some very interesting thoughts!! I've not yet read all the articles. Gonna take some time to digest all this!!

Get some enzymes. I still have heartburn

 

[Lasse]

I have a mini skimmer, purigen, , bioballs, and a stock filter cartridge. It does have carbon in the stock filter, but I've always had that. I had replaced the cartridge about a week prior to the water change and cleaning. It's a 29 gal biocube so I don't keep much in it as far as a bioload, other than the CUC I have 2 clowns and a BTA. Hope that answers your question

Activated carbon does not normally affect the bio load or the nitrification. My concern was if you use vodka dosing (or similar commercial products). Your answer did not make me wiser but I still believe that your high nitrate readings was caused by a nitrite spike.

@klp

My concern was the overload of oxygen during daytime – it’s not beneficial for the algae/animal at all. On the contrary - it is mighty harmful unless oxygen is transported away quickly from the microenvironment at the interface between algae/animal and the water.

If you turn your DT to a skimmer during night time – yes the oxygen levels should rise when there is no photosynthesis but a good skimmer and a good return flow will do the same. My concern is during time of photosynthesis and is caused by the fact that you have too much of the good things.

For the oxygen levels - it’s not necessary with fresh air – it is enough of oxygen even in “used” air. For the levels of carbon dioxide (and with that – the pH) it can be ne necessary with fresh air because the levels of CO2 can be rather high indoors when you have a well isolated flat (or house). But that’s valid even for the skimmer

You get a cleaner tank – yes – but is that always wanted? I personally prefer some detritus for my cleanup crew that is one of the most important factors in my reef keeping and my best tool against nuisance algae.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Liquidangel22]

@Lasse

Oh, no dosing of anything in the tank. I keep the vodka for myself You could totally be right, I honestly am new enough not to even try to think I know a fraction of what you guys seem to know. So I'm basically just going to report how everything goes in my tank and let you guys debate it out as to the causes lol.

I've continued to bubble every night for 4-6 hours since my original post. It's coming up on my 2 week 5 gal water change which I'll be doing this Sunday, but since the post I haven't changed or cleaned anything. The Nitrates are consistently remaining between 0-5, KH 9, Calcium 500, Phos 0.

Still no cyano regrowth on my sand bed, the clowns and BTA have both been eating a lot more heartily than prior, my frogspawn, zenia, and star polyps all look great and are growing well.

Only negative thing so far is that my salinity had gone up from 1.025 to 1.029. I don't have an ATO, and since it's a biocube evaporation has never been much of an issue. I corrected the salinity back to 1.026 over 3 days and check it more frequently now. Caused by the bubbling? No idea, but thought you'd want to know as much detail as possible

Thanks!!

 

[Lasse]

Caused by the bubbling?

Probably it´s that way. It is not only gases like carbon dioxide and oxygen that will be exchanged to their saturation point – water vapour will take part in the gas exchange done by the bubbles too. If the air is dry (low humidity - it is often so if you live inland and/or in a cold climate) it will take up more water vapour. If you bubble in air in a Bio Cub – it will go out somewhere and it’s like you ventilate the air above the water surface.

And regarding to the use of vodka - You are Absolut right

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Liquidangel22]

I live in Southeast Tennessee, it's practically a rain forest it gets so humid, so I guess I should just keep an eye on it and be glad I don't live somewhere like Arizona where an aquarium acts more like a room humidifier lol.

Absolut- hahah nice.

 

[clem1975]

What size tanks are people doing this on? Im thinking with nano tanks 4.0hrs nay be enough every other day. Ive been doing this for 2 weeks now and 1st week watched all kinds of gunk come off my corals now hardly anything. Water is clear and no algae to speak of.

 

[TrPPnN]

Kinda funny to see a bunch people try to gang up on one person trying to do something for others.