Moonshiners method feedback

[LadAShark]

Ran it for more than 2 years. I liked it but got tired of the costs, ICP testing (this is pretty unreliable and one needs to seriously study how to interpret them to make sure nothing was misread or a typo), daily dosing of 8-10 things, and not one person could answer what certain elements did what. Ask Randy and he is open and honest that they have no role in biological functions yet proponents of RM (and other methods) swear you need to add them.

I left the RM method last October. Went back to semi routine water changes, switched to the BRS balling hybrid method, and my tank looks much better than it ever did on RM. I have run 2 ICP tests since October and they came back almost spot on. This way is 100x easier IMO and much cheaper than RM.

A note about my "unreliable" ICP results. I ICP test a lot. See my Ultimate Salt Test thread. I spent years trying to learn and understand ICP testing and how to best use it. There are little nuances that you will discover and some readings will be completely out of left field that are likely incorrect readings. I hate to see people make drastic changes because they don't understand it is a poor test result and not actual numbers.

Not hating on RM in any way. They are a great group with loads of knowledge. There are just easier and simpler ways to run a tank IMO and get similar or even better results.

I suppose the easy way to put it to the test would be to make a salt mix that entirely lacks all said elements. I haven't checked the literature to know if it's been done.

 

[rtparty]

I suppose the easy way to put it to the test would be to make a salt mix that entirely lacks all said elements. I haven't checked the literature to know if it's been done.

It would be next to impossible to make a salt mix without any “trace” elements. They almost always come as impurities with other raw materials like sodium chloride and magnesium

 

[Reefahholic]

It would be next to impossible to make a salt mix without any “trace” elements. They almost always come as impurities with other raw materials like sodium chloride and magnesium

With the results of your salt quest in mind (will look at it tonight). Which salt brand came closest to say… 8.0-8.5 | 425 | 1350 @ 35 ppt.? I’m using Red Sea blue bucket currently and it about the closest I’ve ever had to normal parameters. Anything I need to know about that one?

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

I’ve seen your occasional posts about elements of no known biological role, but is there a summary of those out there by chance? I’m happy to eliminate although the entire process of dosing is 5 mins max per day.

Also, if you have a distinction between ‘definitely no biological role’ and ‘role is unknown’, that would be helpful to see.

This article might help:

"http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/"

Probably happens !

 

[rtparty]

With the results of your salt quest in mind (will look at it tonight). Which salt brand came closest to say… 8.0-8.5 | 425 | 1350 @ 35 ppt.? I’m using Red Sea blue bucket currently and it about the closest I’ve ever had to normal parameters. Anything I need to know about that one?

NYOS - my personal favorite for a 1 part dry mix. My bucket has been super clean and mixes in about 10 minutes.

ESV - Alk is usually closer to 9dkh but you can tweak it slightly. One of my all time favorites.

AF Hybrid Pro - Good salt but expensive. Great to reduce nutrients.

AccurSea - I really like their individual packaging approach. All pre measured for you.

Red Sea Blue - lots of successful tanks with it. My bucket had copper at 22.62ug/l.

I’m personally not a fan of Red Sea as a company but it had good numbers minus the odd copper reading. Likely a one off but it’s the only salt that showed any. Test error? Maybe. They have a new formula that I haven’t seen or tested. I always found Red Sea salt dirty personally.

There is a link to the Google Sheet in my thread and on the YouTube video. You can see all the numbers for all 13-14 salts

 

[Reefahholic]

AF Hybrid Pro - Good salt but expensive. Great to reduce nutrients.

Any idea what they put in there for nutrient management. Sounds like that would be a good choice for a lot of folks.

 

[rtparty]

Any idea what they put in there for nutrient management. Sounds like that would be a good choice for a lot of folks.

It has a probiotic and bacteria. Maybe a carbon source as well in some way? Needs to be used within 72 hours IIRC. Not great for storage or AWC

 

[OutColdCRNA]

Been running moonshiners for a few months, was seeing immediate results and loved it. Over the last month I have seen a decline in acro colors. While fighting GHA my nutrients have dropped. Last icp showed phos at n.n. And nitrate at 2. Been dosing nutrients to bring back up every day. My Alk is high at 9.2 consistently. But I did dose calcion p over four days and had a smooth skin acro stn. This is the second that stn’d after calcium dosing. I’ll try to screen shot my IcP but do you think the pale colors is from lack of nutrients?

 

[bobnicaragua]

I’ve been running moonshiners for over 2 years and also struggle keeping nutrients up. 100%, pale colors are nutrient related. Try lowering the water in your skimmer so it barely skims at all. Auto feeders are also helpful.

With low nutrients, I would drop your alk to 7.5-8.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Been running moonshiners for a few months, was seeing immediate results and loved it. Over the last month I have seen a decline in acro colors. While fighting GHA my nutrients have dropped. Last icp showed phos at n.n. And nitrate at 2. Been dosing nutrients to bring back up every day. My Alk is high at 9.2 consistently. But I did dose calcion p over four days and had a smooth skin acro stn. This is the second that stn’d after calcium dosing. I’ll try to screen shot my IcP but do you think the pale colors is from lack of nutrients?

Hey.. sorry for your situation.

First off I preface this post with the fact that I consider myself fairly nooby and I urge you to take my comments with a grain of salt.

One thing I will say is that you can’t write off that you are not adequately following moonshiner. You have multiple elements which are undetectable and pollutants which appear elevated. Iron for example.. I think it’s bad to have that undetectable on Oceamo ICP. Again JMO and I’m not surprised if that is a culprit.

Other than that personally I always try to keep nutrients detectable, and they are on ICPs every time.

I think every system is so different so I think it’s prudent to be humble when commenting on anyone’s situation. For all we know you simply have some type of “bad” bacteria running rampant in your system, for example.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. You should read the moonshiner handbook and get suggested elements in range before insinuating you are adequately following the method.

Charlie

 

[OutColdCRNA]

Think I’m going to unplug my doser and watch the trend down to low 8 and then start back dosing as the dose rate is spot on to hold my Alk. I beat the Gha with a foxface so I can start dosing heavier nutrients. Still wondering about the stn with the calcium corrections. And thanks for the reply!!

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Think I’m going to unplug my doser and watch the trend down to low 8 and then start back dosing as the dose rate is spot on to hold my Alk. I beat the Gha with a foxface so I can start dosing heavier nutrients. Still wondering about the stn with the calcium corrections. And thanks for the reply!!

Whatever you do do it slow!!! (IMO!!!) lol.

 

[OutColdCRNA]

Hey.. sorry for your situation.

First off I preface this post with the fact that I consider myself fairly nooby and I urge you to take my comments with a grain of salt.

One thing I will say is that you can’t write off that you are not adequately following moonshiner. You have multiple elements which are undetectable and pollutants which appear elevated. Iron for example.. I think it’s bad to have that undetectable on Oceamo ICP. Again JMO and I’m not surprised if that is a culprit.

Other than that personally I always try to keep nutrients detectable, and they are on ICPs every time.

I think every system is so different so I think it’s prudent to be humble when commenting on anyone’s situation. For all we know you simply have some type of “bad” bacteria running rampant in your system, for example.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. You should read the moonshiner handbook and get suggested elements in range before insinuating you are adequately following the method.

Charlie

You are not wrong. There are several elements that are not detectable. Those are predominantly dailies. I have been increasing my daily dosage with each subsequent icp test. I am now at 3x volume for the dailies. The other pollutants like lithium and aluminum are falling after the removal of brightwell gems. So there was never any insinuation of adequacy but rather following to the best of my understanding and knowledge base after reading the handbook multiple times.

 

[OutColdCRNA]

Whatever you do do it slow!!! (IMO!!!) lol.

You are correct sir. I lose approximately 0.3 per day on my Alk. And totally appreciate the advice!!

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Good luck. I’m looking forward to an update and wish you success!

 

[hunterallen40]

You are not wrong. There are several elements that are not detectable. Those are predominantly dailies. I have been increasing my daily dosage with each subsequent icp test. I am now at 3x volume for the dailies. The other pollutants like lithium and aluminum are falling after the removal of brightwell gems. So there was never any insinuation of adequacy but rather following to the best of my understanding and knowledge base after reading the handbook multiple times.

So you should not be tuning the dailies off of ICP-OES results (yours appear to be OES results, judging by the OCR in the test ID).

In order to tune multipliers for daily elements, based on the instructions in the handbook and the calculator, you need the ICP-MS test (which of course is the more expensive one).

Tuning dailies blindly is very risky business, and not something I'd recommend. 3x is where you should stop, as those elements should never appear on an OES test (which it says in the handbook and the dosing calculator). Manganese / iodine / vanadium are the exceptions.

Most importantly, I'm certain the faded colors are the result of your nutrients being undetectable. Get that phosphate up to 0.1 ppm, and keep that nitrate up as well (> 10 ppm is where I like it personally).

 

[Doctor Derp]

So you should not be tuning the dailies off of ICP-OES results (yours appear to be OES results, judging by the OCR in the test ID).

In order to tune multipliers for daily elements, based on the instructions in the handbook and the calculator, you need the ICP-MS test (which of course is the more expensive one).

Tuning dailies blindly is very risky business, and not something I'd recommend. 3x is where you should stop, as those elements should never appear on an MS test (which it says in the handbook and the dosing calculator). Manganese / iodine / vanadium are the exceptions.

Most importantly, I'm certain the faded colors are the result of your nutrients being undetectable. Get that phosphate up to 0.1 ppm, and keep that nitrate up as well (> 10 ppm is where I like it personally).

You do want to see your dailies on the oceamo ICP-MS test.

 

[hunterallen40]

You do want to see your dailies on the oceamo ICP-MS test.

Yes, this is true. You can 100% see dailies on your MS tests, and can fine tune them there. Just want to make sure OP is not doing that based on these Oceamo ICP-OES results.


**Edit**: whoops, I had an unfortunate typo in there. Fixed in my original message.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

does anyone know if the aluminum level is of concern too?

 

[hunterallen40]

does anyone know if the aluminum level is of concern too?

If you have a lot of leathers / mushrooms, maybe. Otherwise, I would not be concerned about this level personally, unless it is increasing on successive tests.

I had levels here with many acros in my system, no issues (just after my tank upgrade). It fell dramatically from test to test, and is now barely detectible.