Moonshiners method feedback

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It does not matter the size of your tank or what current method you use to maintain it the Moonshine process will make reefing easier, more fun and successful. I ran the shine on my tank from the beginning and turn out amazing results.

Well, that's demonstrably incorrect. lol

It may accomplish all sorts of wonderful things (or not), but it cannot rightfully be claimed to be easier than any other method.

There are many people in this forum who use methods that take less time and expense than a method involving testing and dosing of multiple solutions. Dosing kalkwasser from an ATO, and little else, as I did for many years, is "easier" in time and cost.

 

[Mattiejay6]

Well, that's demonstrably incorrect. lol

It may accomplish all sorts of wonderful things (or not), but it cannot rightfully be claimed to be easier than any other method.

There are many people in this forum who use methods that take less time and expense than a method involving testing and dosing of multiple solutions. Dosing kalkwasser from an ATO, and little else, as I did for many years, is "easier" in time and cost.

I personally found it easier for me with starting from the book to understanding the method and then just plugging the ICP results into the calculator.

I started with triton and found that a lot of time they were back ordered on elements I needed, and the dosing breakdown wasn’t always straight forward with needing to do conversions. It may be better now.. i did like how they described the negative effects on their results of too low or too high of issues.


reef moonshine really brought things home for me, laying things out in an extremely easy dosing method, i have a great routine established and things are looking great in my tank.

I also believe bacteria plays a really great role and moonshine does incorporate that into its readings and dosing to your tank. Taking one step further. At least for me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I also believe bacteria plays a really great role and moonshine does incorporate that into its readings and dosing to your tank. Taking one step further. At least for me.

What do they do about bacteria that alters what the method does?

 

[Mattiejay6]

What do they do about bacteria that alters what the method does?

They support a specific product and advise how and when to add it. others May do the same, but when I switched from Triton, they did not.

 

[jda]

$8 to change 44 gallons of water 8-10x a year, a bit of power for CaRx pump and $40 a year in CaRx media. Probably less than $125-150 a year with RO costs to keep elements in my tank, no ICP testing and I can grow any coral at any time. A single ICP test is the same, or more than I pay for salt each year. It does not get cheaper or easier than this.

I don't care who uses what or who is happy with what, but if there was a more effective way to run a reef, I would pay many times more.

What is funny to me is that todays hot method is tomorrow's punchline... just wait. Those that have been around have seen many of them come and go. Kent use to have all of the same supplements, and still do, but apparently they are new and fresh enough. Essential Elements provide essential elements to your tank depleted by depletion bacteria. Coral Accelerator provides stem cells from actual corals to accelerate your other corals that are robbed by the accelerator protozoans. Kent Marine Sex Panther which has tiny bits of real panther - 70% of the time, it works every time.

I have no doubt that some of this might be OK, but if you find yourself thinking that X is any better than Y, then you might want to step back and consider that you are just buying into some marketing and hype. Nearly anything that you NEED to add has a article written with instructions by Dr. Holmes-Farley to do yourself,

 

[Mattiejay6]

$8 to change 44 gallons of water 8-10x a year, a bit of power for CaRx pump and $40 a year in CaRx media. Probably less than $125-150 a year with RO costs to keep elements in my tank, no ICP testing and I can grow any coral at any time. A single ICP test is the same, or more than I pay for salt each year. It does not get cheaper or easier than this.

I don't care who uses what or who is happy with what, but if there was a more effective way to run a reef, I would pay many times more.

What is funny to me is that todays hot method is tomorrow's punchline... just wait. Those that have been around have seen many of them come and go. Kent use to have all of the same supplements, and still do, but apparently they are new and fresh enough. Essential Elements provide essential elements to your tank depleted by depletion bacteria. Coral Accelerator provides stem cells from actual corals to accelerate your other corals that are robbed by the accelerator protozoans. Kent Marine Sex Panther which has tiny bits of real panther - 70% of the time, it works every time.

I have no doubt that some of this might be OK, but if you find yourself thinking that X is any better than Y, then you might want to step back and consider that you are just buying into some marketing and hype. Nearly anything that you NEED to add has a article written with instructions by Dr. Holmes-Farley to do yourself,

I’ve been around plenty long enough.. it’s just a personal choice that what is better than what for the person speaking to their choice and experience. Specifically to this method (RM) being asked about. Not much time out there spent on marketing, at least that I’ve seen. Really everyone here speaking to the program are speaking to what they feel are advantages to them and the benefits it brings to them or their experiences.

 

[Dal-Reef]

Well, that's demonstrably incorrect. lol

It may accomplish all sorts of wonderful things (or not), but it cannot rightfully be claimed to be easier than any other method.

There are many people in this forum who use methods that take less time and expense than a method involving testing and dosing of multiple solutions. Dosing kalkwasser from an ATO, and little else, as I did for many years, is "easier" in time and cost.

I have been in reefing since the early 90's I can tell you that when running Kalkwasser it is messy crap to to deal with and that isn't easier. Each to his own but I do claim FOR ME it was easier.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They support a specific product and advise how and when to add it. others May do the same, but when I switched from Triton, they did not.

So they recommend adding bacteria, not a different trace element plan due to bacteria? I was thinking you meant the latter.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have been in reefing since the early 90's I can tell you that when running Kalkwasser it is messy crap to to deal with and that isn't easier. Each to his own but I do claim FOR ME it was easier.

Ok, I think most folks will disagree with your assertion, but at least folks now understand what you mean by easy.

 

[Mattiejay6]

So they recommend adding bacteria, not a different trace element plan due to bacteria? I was thinking you meant the latter.

correct. Dosing bacteria. Not a trace element plan due to bacteria.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

$8 to change 44 gallons of water 8-10x a year, a bit of power for CaRx pump and $40 a year in CaRx media. Probably less than $125-150 a year with RO costs to keep elements in my tank, no ICP testing and I can grow any coral at any time. A single ICP test is the same, or more than I pay for salt each year. It does not get cheaper or easier than this.

I don't care who uses what or who is happy with what, but if there was a more effective way to run a reef, I would pay many times more.

What is funny to me is that todays hot method is tomorrow's punchline... just wait. Those that have been around have seen many of them come and go. Kent use to have all of the same supplements, and still do, but apparently they are new and fresh enough. Essential Elements provide essential elements to your tank depleted by depletion bacteria. Coral Accelerator provides stem cells from actual corals to accelerate your other corals that are robbed by the accelerator protozoans. Kent Marine Sex Panther which has tiny bits of real panther - 70% of the time, it works every time.

I have no doubt that some of this might be OK, but if you find yourself thinking that X is any better than Y, then you might want to step back and consider that you are just buying into some marketing and hype. Nearly anything that you NEED to add has a article written with instructions by Dr. Holmes-Farley to do yourself,

To each his own, but the OP asked for experiences with the R M method. Unless I missed something, you haven’t tried it. I’ve been in the hobby since 1991 and have seen lots of fads come and go. The RM method is not brand new. It’s been around for a while now. I was very skeptical but have been very impressed since starting it.

 

[Reefahholic]

I had enough PAR with just the 3 on my tank. I added the last two for OCD, extra coverage, and to allow full blown SPS anywhere I want. I had better spread and PAR with 3 Blades than I did with the 3 halides and 2 XHOs.

Outside of a few early batch issues, they’ve been even better than I hoped.

Nice! I hear they are pretty strong with good spread. Glad you like them. I know you weren’t happy with the Halides. PAR alone is kinda low unless you have supplementals or hang them low. Wish I could grab some M80 ballast’s, just to try them with Radium’s, but honestly I can’t complain too much. They are growing the corals with the combo of MH + Radion’s.

 

[rtparty]

Nice! I hear they are pretty strong with good spread. Glad you like them. I know you weren’t happy with the Halides. PAR alone is kinda low unless you have supplementals or hang them low. Wish I could grab some M80 ballast’s, just to try them with Radium’s, but honestly I can’t complain too much. They are growing the corals with the combo of MH + Radion’s.

I was a big fan of the halides minus how hard it is getting to find good stuff. I really liked the Radiums but the PAR was so low with them not being on the proper ballast. They were also very bulky over the tank.

Wish I knew how to get better pics.

 

[Reefahholic]

I was a big fan of the halides minus how hard it is getting to find good stuff. I really liked the Radiums but the PAR was so low with them not being on the proper ballast. They were also very bulky over the tank.

Wish I knew how to get better pics.

I’m personally not a fan of Halides because of the bulkiness, but there is something special about the light they put out. Same with T5’s. So I figured I’d give them a go even after all these years. Better late to the party than never. Glad I finally got to experience them.

 

[Reefahholic]

Back to the topic:


Everybody has their own way to run a reef. The best reefs I’ve seen are aged, typically run a CaRx, Kalk, and CO2 scrubber. Of course not all of them, but if you go look at a lot of TOTM’s, you’ll see commonalities. Yes, I do understand not one tank back them ran on Moonshine, so why would I or anybody else choose this method or similar methods today? For me this is less about a product or method and more about Chemistry.

Here’s my observations:

Keeping tight chemistry produces results. The water quality is everything in a reef. From what I see in my own reef tighter chemistry produces better color, health, and corals simply grow faster. I’m not saying you can’t keep a reef with some elements low or depleted, because you can. You definitely can. I just don’t believe it’s the most optimal way for the fastest growth, and you will be “more likely” to run into problems. This is just my anecdotal observations. I mean I don’t know about you guys, but I need all the help I can get.

I looked at a public ICP of an elite reefer in a YouTube video. Much respect for this guy. However, many elements on the ICP were low or nearly depleted, and Iodine was about 7x the normal level. His corals are super nice, he gets good growth, and most would consider him to be one of our veteran reefers in the hobby. The corals look excellent despite the chemistry being what many would consider suboptimal. The guy knows how to keep his reef. So of course corals can grow without dialing everything in, but I often wonder how ridiculously insane his tanks would look if he “did” dial the elements in tighter, and how much “more” growth he would receive?! Not only growth, but light protection and parasitic resistance. Chris Meckley seems to understand the importance of good chemistry now, and I’d bet he’d tell you he’s appreciated much better growth than ever before at his farm. So for those that seem to be against Reef Moonshiner’s, I’d highly recommend tying their method or full Triton. At the very least, send a quantity ICP like OCEAMO and correct your major elements. We all correct salinity, ALK, CAL, and MAG…but many stop at Boron, Bromide, Potassium, and Strontium. Why? If the corals are sucking it down on every ICP I’d say it’s probably important because their using it. I understand this is only anecdotal evidence, but come on. Dose some Windex into your system, and see if they consume that. Lol.


I think what it boils down to is that most folks simply don’t know how to go beyond the basics. You need to know the potency of the product, how many ppm’s or ppb’s to add, your target, and how long to run out a correction dose. If you try to dose X amount of X product all in one day you can crash your reef. With ICP analyses and calculators this is made easy, and what was once impossible for some is now made possible for all! Even newbies can keep their reefs at a pro level today. This is because of the work that many veterans have accomplished from sharing anecdotal evidence, information, experiences across borders. It takes some time to figure this stuff out, but we find ourselves here today.

Take a guy like Coral Fragz for example. That guy grows corals fast enough to easily quit his day job just from one system alone if he had enough demand. I’ve had many conversations about how he runs that system, and it’s not simple by any means. The guy has everything calculated out and it’s growing like crazy. He’s definitely smarter than me. Andre is the same way…next level reefer.


The bottom line is that reefing isn’t easy although people always try to act like it is. It takes work to grow and maintain corals. It takes dedication. You “can” do it the easy way, but people like Andre or Coral Fragz will smoke you to the finish line, because they’re keeping the entire chemistry in check. You may arrive, but you’ll be late to the party, and you’ll likely have more problems than they will along the way. There’s definitely something to be said for a well established system like Jda’s (10+ years), but how much better would it be? That’s the question. What would the colors look like? Jda will tell you it wouldn’t be any different, but I continue to see much better colors and growth in every single system that is correcting elements and continuing to bring the chemistry to a higher level. I think most people that have tried it will tell you the same.

 

[Stang67]

Back to the topic:


Everybody has their own way to run a reef. The best reefs I’ve seen are aged, typically run a CaRx, Kalk, and CO2 scrubber. Of course not all of them, but if you go look at a lot of TOTM’s, you’ll see commonalities. Yes, I do understand not one tank back them ran on Moonshine, so why would I or anybody else choose this method or similar methods today? For me this is less about a product or method and more about Chemistry.

Here’s my observations:

Keeping tight chemistry produces results. The water quality is everything in a reef. From what I see in my own reef tighter chemistry produces better color, health, and corals simply grow faster. I’m not saying you can’t keep a reef with some elements low or depleted, because you can. You definitely can. I just don’t believe it’s the most optimal way for the fastest growth, and you will be “more likely” to run into problems. This is just my anecdotal observations. I mean I don’t know about you guys, but I need all the help I can get.

I looked at a public ICP of an elite reefer in a YouTube video. Much respect for this guy. However, many elements on the ICP were low or nearly depleted, and Iodine was about 7x the normal level. His corals are super nice, he gets good growth, and most would consider him to be one of our veteran reefers in the hobby. The corals look excellent despite the chemistry being what many would consider suboptimal. The guy knows how to keep his reef. So of course corals can grow without dialing everything in, but I often wonder how ridiculously insane his tanks would look if he “did” dial the elements in tighter, and how much “more” growth he would receive?! Not only growth, but light protection and parasitic resistance. Chris Meckley seems to understand the importance of good chemistry now, and I’d bet he’d tell you he’s appreciated much better growth than ever before at his farm. So for those that seem to be against Reef Moonshiner’s, I’d highly recommend tying their method or full Triton. At the very least, send a quantity ICP like OCEAMO and correct your major elements. We all correct salinity, ALK, CAL, and MAG…but many stop at Boron, Bromide, Potassium, and Strontium. Why? If the corals are sucking it down on every ICP I’d say it’s probably important because their using it. I understand this is only anecdotal evidence, but come on. Dose some Windex into your system, and see if they consume that. Lol.


I think what it boils down to is that most folks simply don’t know how to go beyond the basics. You need to know the potency of the product, how many ppm’s or ppb’s to add, your target, and how long to run out a correction dose. If you try to dose X amount of X product all in one day you can crash your reef. With ICP analyses and calculators this is made easy, and what was once impossible for some is now made possible for all! Even newbies can keep their reefs at a pro level today. This is because of the work that many veterans have accomplished from sharing anecdotal evidence, information, experiences across borders. It takes some time to figure this stuff out, but we find ourselves here today.

Take a guy like Coral Fragz for example. That guy grows corals fast enough to easily quit his day job just from one system alone if he had enough demand. I’ve had many conversations about how he runs that system, and it’s not simple by any means. The guy has everything calculated out and it’s growing like crazy. He’s definitely smarter than me. Andre is the same way…next level reefer.


The bottom line is that reefing isn’t easy although people always try to act like it is. It takes work to grow and maintain corals. It takes dedication. You “can” do it the easy way, but people like Andre or Coral Fragz will smoke you to the finish line, because they’re keeping the entire chemistry in check. You may arrive, but you’ll be late to the party, and you’ll likely have more problems than they will along the way. There’s definitely something to be said for a well established system like Jda’s (10+ years), but how much better would it be? That’s the question. What would the colors look like? Jda will tell you it wouldn’t be any different, but I continue to see much better colors and growth in every single system that is correcting elements and continuing to bring the chemistry to a higher level. I think most people that have tried it will tell you the same.

Very nice write up thank you very much.

 

[hunterallen40]

I think @Reefahholic pretty much just dropped the mic there, but he's absolutely right. Just give it a go .

 

[reef_ranch]

And then there's Jason Fox , Tusi, @RussiReef and so many others (JDA included) who don't dose many if any individual trace elements yet have incredible coloration. and growth. I love the concept and have dabbled with Fauna Marin and RM with some success but the "scientist" in me has concluded that without (a) tests that are accurate and repeatable at the ppb level (Sanjay and Rich Ross's reports raise questions about that) and (b) even more importantly, evidence that each element has a biological effect, we're really just making educated guesses and throwing elements at the wall seeing what sticks, without ever knowing which do. My guess is that a small handful of the trace elements are important to health and coloration but we don't know which so these systems target all they can in a shotgun approach. It sure helps to watch your tank every day and test parameters regularly. Just keeping the major elements and nutrients in balance is 90+% of the battle.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Great thread and debate everyone. Humbly following the debate from the sidelines… I’d consider myself too nooby to valuably contribute.

 

[Mattiejay6]

And then there's Jason Fox , Tusi, @RussiReef and so many others (JDA included) who don't dose many if any individual trace elements yet have incredible coloration. and growth. I love the concept and have dabbled with Fauna Marin and RM with some success but the "scientist" in me has concluded that without (a) tests that are accurate and repeatable at the ppb level (Sanjay and Rich Ross's reports raise questions about that) and (b) even more importantly, evidence that each element has a biological effect, we're really just making educated guesses and throwing elements at the wall seeing what sticks, without ever knowing which do. My guess is that a small handful of the trace elements are important to health and coloration but we don't know which so these systems target all they can in a shotgun approach. It sure helps to watch your tank every day and test parameters regularly. Just keeping the major elements and nutrients in balance is 90+% of the battle.

The Basics of Minor Trace Elements in Reef Aquariums | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

As the hobby has continued to expand and the knowledge to be successful with it, some aspects have been found to be more important than originally thought. Foremost among these is water chemistry and…

reefbuilders.com

this newly released article on reef builders seems to answer a lot of your doubts above.