Myths and Misinformation - fish edition

[Jay Hemdal]

As far as your experience with lethal copper toxicity goes, does it make a difference between cupramine and coppersafe or power?

Cupramine has a documented adverse reaction when combined with reducing agents like Prime. It is also more difficult to test and measure (more narrow dose range). Coppersafe has no issues in that regard. Copper Power is similar, but I have less experience with that. Ionic copper/citric acid (old school) is what causes the most issues with acute toxicity. There is no evidence of delayed toxicity with any copper product.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

" Nutrition is only the foundation to health"

That is simply not true. Yes energy intake is important to immune function due to its costly nature when one is sick, but energy and macro/micronutrient intake is only one aspect into maintaining a living system. Inflammation, behavior, aggression given/received, stress, rank / social status, social system, the environment, repair mechanics and their triggers, genetics, body/cell regulations, the specific pathogen, etc. all matter. Health is far more complicated than that

I had started a discussion on immunity in fishes:

Fish Immunity

I was working on some text this morning. Not enough for a full article (yet) so I thought I'd post it here for discussion: Immunity in Fish The ability for a fish to fight off a disease (or not) is based on the level of immunity it has. A physically stressed fish will have a lower immunity...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Some people claim that hydrogen peroxide can cure some fish diseases. Any thoughts about this treatment.

That's complicated. The original study was done with peroxide dips and Pacific threadfins. 75 ppm dips cured the fish of Amyloodinium., However, the fish needed multiple dips and had to be moved to sterile tanks between dips. Dipping and returning to the same tank doesn't work. Low dose peroxide in the tank itself doesn't work - shrimp and beneficial bacteria die from peroxide doses lower than needed to cure the disease.

Jsay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Great write up!

What are the most effective methods for eliminating internal parasites? I’m comfortable doing QT at home but this is my biggest concern.

Properly dosed medicated foods are an option, but you need three basic oral meds: prazi for tapeworms, metro for protozoans and then, Fenbendazole for nematodes.

One option is to use General Cure in the water instead of Prazipro. The added metronidazole helps with protozoans. Then, nematodes are the only real issue.

Here is an article on dosing medicated foods:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

This article offers information about developing medicated foods for aquarium fish

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Mark Bradley]

I was told circa 10 years ago that if you maintain top quality water then you will avoid troubles. This was when I was keeping malawis - even fight damage would be adequately treated by the water (albeit they may need to be isolated in a breeding box).
I have adopted this principle with marines.
in my time with malawis (which needed overcrowding with fish) and my 3+ years with marines I have not had any diseases or illnesses.
I put this down to keeping the water in as pristine a condition as I can.

 

[lynn.reef.nerd]

As clarification, if I do not want to raise my temperature to 81, I still stick with 76 days?

 

[Flame2hawk]

Some know I’ve been battling ailment in my 625g FOWLR. I mis diagnosed it for 2 years until a DNA test pointed to uromena. The fish were dosed with many rounds of copper power, metro, kanaplex, NitroFurazone, chlo.phosphate, etc. and finally formalin which seems to have done the trick. Besides the money spent and fish death along the way, (which is horrible of course but hopefully behind me), I have been very worried of the impact my mis diagnosis and treatments have had on fish life expectancy/longevity.

Should I feel better based on your informed comment, (Mortality caused by medications, years after application. Copper, formalin and cyanide have all been implicated in fish loss years after exposure – this is not borne out by histopathology”), on the topic?

insights and thoughts are most welcomed and appreciated.

 

[steveschuerger]

Thanks for the mythbusting @Jay Hemdal . I do have a quick question in regards to voltage.
-when I was moving tanks last year, I used a couple tubs to hold the rocks and critters(fish, coral etc). Found out the heater had a short when I went to put them into the new tank. All my non coral animals were fine. Lost a bunch of coral. Wa it truly the electricity? I always assumed so.

 

[brandon429]

Jay
Regarding peroxide

If you use seneye on a running reef to calibrate the meter to match known baseline for nitrification, then add peroxide in several different commonly used doses, there's zero impact to filtration bacteria and in fact a temporary increase in efficiency compared to baseline. Your tests were done with api and not in a stocked, running reef display therefore I'm not sure why that claim exists.

Please repeat the study using seneye and a reef tank vs plastic/ qt setup lacking all protective organics

Peroxide in context of a reef tank doesn't harm filtration bacteria. List that among the paradoxes everyone expected (like orp)

Experiments in cycling done out of context to a stocked reef tank don't apply to stocked reef tanks, seneye users post fully opposite findings

Same thing as testing cold polished steel after applying peroxide, of course some bacteria will be dead/ not how reef tanks present

That peroxide article writeup did a disservice to peroxide users for the last 12 years finding a boost in nitrification, not a drop, we tested in the right context. There wasn't a differentiation between actual displays vs the potential impacts from barren holding/obs tanks which I agree it could impact

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the mythbusting @Jay Hemdal . I do have a quick question in regards to voltage.
-when I was moving tanks last year, I used a couple tubs to hold the rocks and critters(fish, coral etc). Found out the heater had a short when I went to put them into the new tank. All my non coral animals were fine. Lost a bunch of coral. Wa it truly the electricity? I always assumed so.

I have seen issues with true electrical shorts (not just induced voltage). I don’t know if it is the actual current flow that causes the issue, or if it is from electrolysis which could convert sulfate ions to sulfide.
Jay

 

[Pankney72]

I've sent hundreds of fish out for histopathology, it is NOT the use of copper years prior that causes the liver damage in these predatory fish. It is hepatic lipidosis and that is diet-related. Nobody has a really good handle on that - it isn't solely due to over-feeding, or improper HUFA profile, or lack of thiamin/vitamin E, probably is a combination of all factors.

Metro+focus works, but ONLY if you dose it correctly - 0.50% metro by weight in the food. If you don't know the concentration of the drug, don't use it. You wouldn't add an unknown amount of a drug to your tank water, why would you do that in their food?

Jay

Thanks for letting us know you've sent out the path. If the copper deposited in toxic levels you'd be able to see it on staining with a different injury pattern than fatty liver. Steatohepatitis makes a lot more sense than the liver not being able to regenerate from an injury over a year old.

Again, thanks for doing the hard work so we don't have to.

 

[sc50964]

Cupramine has a documented adverse reaction when combined with reducing agents like Prime. It is also more difficult to test and measure (more narrow dose range). Coppersafe has no issues in that regard. Copper Power is similar, but I have less experience with that. Ionic copper/citric acid (old school) is what causes the most issues with acute toxicity. There is no evidence of delayed toxicity with any copper product.

Jay

Thanks

how about the reported toxic or harmful interaction between cupramine & UV? Can you also comment on that? Does it only reach harmful level when it’s 0.5ppm with UV? Are some fish, such as lion, puffer, and eel, more susceptible to this combination?

also, is the following still accurate?

Medication Compatibility Guide

The following thread will serve as database of medications that can or can not be mixed together. The thread will always be updated with list of medications that have been tested together. The title of each section is linkable to a thread that gets into more details about the medication itself...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[trainbob]

Yes parasites

 

[Jase4224]

Properly dosed medicated foods are an option, but you need three basic oral meds: prazi for tapeworms, metro for protozoans and then, Fenbendazole for nematodes.

One option is to use General Cure in the water instead of Prazipro. The added metronidazole helps with protozoans. Then, nematodes are the only real issue.

Here is an article on dosing medicated foods:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

This article offers information about developing medicated foods for aquarium fish

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Thank you Jay. Unfortunately in Australia General Cure is very difficult to acquire. Does Prazi, Metro and Fend get inside the fish if dosed into the water? Is it possible to rid a fish of internal parasites just dosing meds into the QT water?

How can I tell if or which internal parasites a fish has?

Sorry for all the questions, hopefully this helps many others. No point asking these types of questions for just anyone to answer..

 

[Jase4224]

I was told circa 10 years ago that if you maintain top quality water then you will avoid troubles. This was when I was keeping malawis - even fight damage would be adequately treated by the water (albeit they may need to be isolated in a breeding box).
I have adopted this principle with marines.
in my time with malawis (which needed overcrowding with fish) and my 3+ years with marines I have not had any diseases or illnesses.
I put this down to keeping the water in as pristine a condition as I can.

I got away with the same method. For nearly 20 years. Until velvet. Perfect water doesn’t hurt parasites and won’t prevent the sheer numbers of parasites that can accumulate in a closed system.

 

[Jase4224]

Jay
Regarding peroxide

If you use seneye on a running reef to calibrate the meter to match known baseline for nitrification, then add peroxide in several different commonly used doses, there's zero impact to filtration bacteria and in fact a temporary increase in efficiency compared to baseline. Your tests were done with api and not in a stocked, running reef display therefore I'm not sure why that claim exists.

Please repeat the study using seneye and a reef tank vs plastic/ qt setup lacking all protective organics

Peroxide in context of a reef tank doesn't harm filtration bacteria. List that among the paradoxes everyone expected (like orp)

Experiments in cycling done out of context to a stocked reef tank don't apply to stocked reef tanks, seneye users post fully opposite findings

Same thing as testing cold polished steel after applying peroxide, of course some bacteria will be dead/ not how reef tanks present

That peroxide article writeup did a disservice to peroxide users for the last 12 years finding a boost in nitrification, not a drop, we tested in the right context. There wasn't a differentiation between actual displays vs the potential impacts from barren holding/obs tanks which I agree it could impact

It seemed to me that Jay was simply stating that peroxide at a high enough level to cure disease would kill the bacteria in the system. I don’t think that he claimed dosing peroxide at normal levels would have an impact.

I have personally dosed 200ml of 3% to my 180gal system in a single dose and saw zero effects on any livestock. I believe dosing peroxide can kill bacteria in the water but dissipates very quickly. I bet it would take a very serious dose to actually kill bacteria on surfaces.

I’m sure that dosing enough peroxide to actually kill a parasite on a fish (through its slime coat!) would absolutely kill off a bunch of bacteria on other surfaces.

 

[steveschuerger]

I have seen issues with true electrical shorts (not just induced voltage). I don’t know if it is the actual current flow that causes the issue, or if it is from electrolysis which could convert sulfate ions to sulfide.
Jay

Thanks. That answers the question. It seemed to be a low voltage short.

 

[lion king]

Thanks for letting us know you've sent out the path. If the copper deposited in toxic levels you'd be able to see it on staining with a different injury pattern than fatty liver. Steatohepatitis makes a lot more sense than the liver not being able to regenerate from an injury over a year old.

Again, thanks for doing the hard work so we don't have to.

You mean something like this, still waiting for someone to take me up on the challenges I've given here for years. Check it out for yourself and show me the survivors living happily years later.

 

[sc50964]

You mean something like this, still waiting for someone to take me up on the challenges I've given here for years. Check it out for yourself and show me the survivors living happily years later.

Can you pls add something to this pic so it helps me to know what we are looking at & what’s wrong with it?

 

[Garf]

Jay
Regarding peroxide

If you use seneye on a running reef to calibrate the meter to match known baseline for nitrification, then add peroxide in several different commonly used doses, there's zero impact to filtration bacteria and in fact a temporary increase in efficiency compared to baseline. Your tests were done with api and not in a stocked, running reef display therefore I'm not sure why that claim exists.

Please repeat the study using seneye and a reef tank vs plastic/ qt setup lacking all protective organics

Peroxide in context of a reef tank doesn't harm filtration bacteria. List that among the paradoxes everyone expected (like orp)

Experiments in cycling done out of context to a stocked reef tank don't apply to stocked reef tanks, seneye users post fully opposite findings

Same thing as testing cold polished steel after applying peroxide, of course some bacteria will be dead/ not how reef tanks present

That peroxide article writeup did a disservice to peroxide users for the last 12 years finding a boost in nitrification, not a drop, we tested in the right context. There wasn't a differentiation between actual displays vs the potential impacts from barren holding/obs tanks which I agree it could impact

Perhaps there’s a bleaching effect on the slide, giving a fake low, perhaps seneye could tell you.

Edit;