New Nitrifying Bacteria Experiment.

[MnFish1]

Experiment 10 started:

1. Rinse tank with Fresh saltwater, add 2 ppm ammonia.
2. Monitor until 2 ppm Processed (start 10:45)
3. I did not take pictures.

 

[Coxey81]

Experiment 9 conclusions:

1a. Tank Temperature tap-water scrub and rinse affects ability of rock to process ammonia
- OR -
1b. Tap-water rinse killed off some other 'living things' that resulted in higher ammonia levels that required processing.
2. In distinction to @sixty_reefer's experiment, there was no 'bacterial bloom - so my guess is that 1a is correct.
3. The experiment will be replicated - after its again proven that the rock can process 2 ppm ammonia.
4. Both the Seachem Alert and API tests continue to be reliable.

Any Comments - @Lasse, @Coxey81, @sixty_reefer, @brandon429, @Dan_P, @RMccoy, @Garf etc etc etc.

Seems to have mimicked sixtys ~50 percent loss in ability.

 

[Garf]

Seems to have mimicked sixtys ~50 percent loss in ability.

@Randy Holmes-Farley did mention the anti microbial properties of chlorinated tap water on your thread, as I recall. Perhaps a dechlorinated freshwater version of the test @MnFish1, would clarify ? A few minutes exposure is a lot faster than I would have thought possible, but hey I suppose you’d have to get rid of any copper also, so, a RODI with just a trace of salt?

 

[MnFish1]

@Randy Holmes-Farley did mention the anti microbial properties of chlorinated tap water on your thread, as I recall. Perhaps a dechlorinated freshwater version of the test @MnFish1, would clarify ? A few minutes exposure is a lot faster than I would have thought possible, but hey I suppose you’d have to get rid of any copper also, so, a RODI with just a trace of salt?

Yes - agree - my plan is to get the rock back to processing 2 ppm/day (hopefully tomorrow) - and then will repeat the tap water just to replicate it.

Then - will use RODI rinse.

Then I have many other plans

 

[Lasse]

Yes - agree - my plan is to get the rock back to processing 2 ppm/day (hopefully tomorrow) - and then will repeat the tap water just to replicate it.

Then - will use RODI rinse.

Then I have many other plans

Does your chlorinated water contain chloramines? Chemical formula of Chloramine is NH2Cl. The breakdown of chloramines will add some NH4 to your system. You need to calculate worst case of new NH4 (through chloramines) in order to know if the longer processing time is caused of more NH4 in the system, fewer bacteria (some killed by the rinse) or a combination of both.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Does your chlorinated water contain chloramines? Chemical formula of Chloramine is NH2Cl. The breakdown of chloramines will add some NH4 to your system. You need to calculate worst case of new NH4 (through chloramines) in order to know if the longer processing time is caused of more NH4 in the system, fewer bacteria (some killed by the rinse) or a combination of both.

Sincerely Lasse

HI Lasse - our water does not contain Chloramines. It contains 1-1.3 ppm Chlorine. (I thought I had posted that earlier) - but I did check with the water treatment people.

PS - the tank was not back to 0 ppm by 24 hours. It took about 30 hours. So will try again today!

 

[MnFish1]

Experiment 10 started:

1. Rinse tank with Fresh saltwater, add 2 ppm ammonia.
2. Monitor until 2 ppm Processed (start 10:45)
3. I did not take pictures.

Experiment 10 results:

1. The water did not return to 0 ammonia until about 30 hours.
2. Will re-start the Usual 2 ppm ammonia experiment today - and then re-check tomorrow. So this will be

Experiment 10A - Re-evaulate that 2 ppm Ammonia is consumed in 24 hours.

 

[Lasse]

But even if it only contain free chlorine - chloramines will be formed if you ad ammonium - in fact - many water treatments here in Sweden do not ad chloramines directly into the water - instead they use free chlorine and add ammonium afterwords - chloramines will be formed and slowly release both chlorine and ammonium during a prolonged period in the water pipe system

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

But even if it only contain free chlorine - chloramines will be formed if you ad ammonium - in fact - many water treatments here in Sweden do not ad chloramines directly into the water - instead they use free chlorine and add ammonium afterwords - chloramines will be formed and slowly release both chlorine and ammonium during a prolonged period in the water pipe system

Sincerely Lasse

I see what you mean - Fyi - the way it was done is -

1. Scrub rock under running tank temp tank water.
2. Rinse rock with Fresh salt water
3. Add Fresh saltwater to tank
4. Add ammonia to tank.

Do you think this is enough to mitigate this?

 

[MnFish1]

Experiment 10A Summary (Does ammonia return to 0 after 24 hours): Yes after 2 tries.

 

[MnFish1]

Experiment 11 Starting today:

1. Rinse/Scrub rock in Fresh water for 2-3 minutes
2. Rinse x 2 with fresh salt water
3. Add Fresh salt water with 2 ppm ammonia

It will be interesting to see if the rocks do worse, better of the same - at ammonia processing - with the second rinse.

? Are the bacteria not as well established?
? did the rinse/scrub get rid of some biofilm and allow more colonization

Tests to follow.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

My ADD brain can't get through 13 pages... I will personally venmo someone $10 if they can't link me to every summary thus far or summarize... My brain hurts but very interested to see if it matched the previous studies.

 

[brandon429]

I really like MN's summary too. He's taken time to chart the data but I'm not good at tying in all that I like words not figures lol and it shows. I would imagine he's able to make a very strong interpretation as both the logger and analyst of the data, can't wait.

 

[MnFish1]

I won't go through each experiment - but will give the conclusions (so far):

For those who wanted a summary thus far:

1. Both Rock from a dark sump Tank 1 and Rock from a lit display - older than 5 years did not process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours on the first day
2. It took 3 doses of ammonia at 2 PPM - in fresh salt water over about 7-10 days to get the rock to process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours.
3. The rock from the lit display processed ammonia (Tank 2) and more efficiently than Tank 1 from the start - this advantage decreased with each experiment
4. The effects in statement 3 also persisted despite doing the remainder of the experiments with both tanks 'Dark'. I.e. the advantage to Tank 2 is not likely due to photosynthesis.
5. The tank itself, and equipment did not seem to supply any? ammonia processing capability in either tank
6. Rinsing Rock with saltwater did not affect nitrification
7. Rinsing and Scrubbing with saltwater did not affect Nitrification
8. Rinsing and scrubbing with Fresh tap water (Chlorinated) decreased nitrification by about 50 percent.
9. A replicate of #8 will be finished today.

More to come

 

[MnFish1]

PS @NeonRabbit221B

So yes - in general the studies done by @Coxie81 and Sixty_reefer were replicated - with the following exceptions

1. Photosynthesis did not appear to play a role.
2. In the lit tank - there was no heterotrophic bloom like there was in @sixty_reefer's tank. He had more living stuff on the rocks - and also left his lights on for 24 hours - whereas I left the lights on 12 hours and off 12 hours - until the later experiments - when both tanks were dark.

 

[MnFish1]

FYI - at 24 hours both seachem alerts were 'on Alert'. At 36 hours - slightly lower - suggesting a continued drop in nitrification with tap water rinsing/scrubbing.

 

[MnFish1]

After 48 hours - the ammonia - both on Seachem and API was 0. But - still far delayed - beyond 'usual'.

I think we can conclude this experiment with the same conclusions as yesterday - with the following addition(s)

1. Both Rock from a dark sump Tank 1 and Rock from a lit display - older than 5 years did not process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours on the first day
2. It took 3 doses of ammonia at 2 PPM - in fresh salt water over about 7-10 days to get the rock to process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours.
3. The rock from the lit display processed ammonia (Tank 2) and more efficiently than Tank 1 from the start - this advantage decreased with each experiment
4. The effects in statement 3 also persisted despite doing the remainder of the experiments with both tanks 'Dark'. I.e. the advantage to Tank 2 is not likely due to photosynthesis.
5. The tank itself, and equipment did not seem to supply any? ammonia processing capability in either tank
6. Rinsing Rock with saltwater did not affect nitrification
7. Rinsing and Scrubbing with saltwater did not affect Nitrification
8. Rinsing and scrubbing with Fresh tap water (Chlorinated) decreased nitrification by about 50 percent.
9. The replicate of step 8 was finished today. and replicated it. Will have to wait - again until the tank processes 2 ppm ammonia. After that I will have some new ideas - and will hopefully start a new thread. I might do an RODI rinse x2 in this thread.

Comments?

 

[MnFish1]

PS - other conclusions/observations:

1. The API test (for ammonia) - has numerous areas for potential error - BUT - if done correctly (at least with my bottles) - matches with the Seachem Alert badge. Some causes for error I have seen:

a. If you do not mix the tube well before adding #2. If you add #2 before adequate mixing it gives a false positive reading of between 0 and 0.25.
b. If you do not vigorously shake bottle 2 it will cause an error 0-0.25
c. If you do not shake the mixture the appropriate length of time - you will get the 0-0.25 'error'
d. If you wait longer than 5 minutes - you will get the error.

Morale of the story - follow the instructions

2. The Seachem alert badge after nearly a month - still continues to show appropriate measurements. when ammonia is added to the tank - the alert changes rapidly. When it drops (for example - if you change the water - the 'alert status' remains longer than it took to make the ammonia look 'high'
3. Appreciation to @Coxey81, @sixty_reefer, @brandon429 - and others @taricha, @Dan_P, @NeonRabbit221B who experiment for the hobby because it is a bit of work. and hopefully will help everyone...

 

[Garf]

PS - other conclusions/observations:

1. The API test (for ammonia) - has numerous areas for potential error - BUT - if done correctly (at least with my bottles) - matches with the Seachem Alert badge. Some causes for error I have seen:

a. If you do not mix the tube well before adding #2. If you add #2 before adequate mixing it gives a false positive reading of between 0 and 0.25.
b. If you do not vigorously shake bottle 2 it will cause an error 0-0.25
c. If you do not shake the mixture the appropriate length of time - you will get the 0-0.25 'error'
d. If you wait longer than 5 minutes - you will get the error.

Morale of the story - follow the instructions

2. The Seachem alert badge after nearly a month - still continues to show appropriate measurements. when ammonia is added to the tank - the alert changes rapidly. When it drops (for example - if you change the water - the 'alert status' remains longer than it took to make the ammonia look 'high'
3. Appreciation to @Coxey81, @sixty_reefer, @brandon429 - and others @taricha, @Dan_P, @NeonRabbit221B who experiment for the hobby because it is a bit of work. and hopefully will help everyone...

I used to use my finger as a stopper, when using the API ammonia test. That was daft.

 

[Garf]

PS - other conclusions/observations:

1. The API test (for ammonia) - has numerous areas for potential error - BUT - if done correctly (at least with my bottles) - matches with the Seachem Alert badge. Some causes for error I have seen:

a. If you do not mix the tube well before adding #2. If you add #2 before adequate mixing it gives a false positive reading of between 0 and 0.25.
b. If you do not vigorously shake bottle 2 it will cause an error 0-0.25
c. If you do not shake the mixture the appropriate length of time - you will get the 0-0.25 'error'
d. If you wait longer than 5 minutes - you will get the error.

Morale of the story - follow the instructions

2. The Seachem alert badge after nearly a month - still continues to show appropriate measurements. when ammonia is added to the tank - the alert changes rapidly. When it drops (for example - if you change the water - the 'alert status' remains longer than it took to make the ammonia look 'high'
3. Appreciation to @Coxey81, @sixty_reefer, @brandon429 - and others @taricha, @Dan_P, @NeonRabbit221B who experiment for the hobby because it is a bit of work. and hopefully will help everyone...

So are we sayin, after a small sample size that washin stuff in tap is bad? Didn’t we all know that anyway? In my freshwater days the general wisdom was to use tank water to clean filters, not tap.