New Nitrifying Bacteria Experiment.

[MnFish1]

I used to use my finger as a stopper, when using the API ammonia test. That was daft.

Right - but you dont think about it at the time right?

 

[MnFish1]

So are we sayin, after a small sample size that washin stuff in tap is bad? Didn’t we all know that anyway? In my freshwater days the general wisdom was to use tank water to clean filters, not tap.

I think after 3 different people's experiments - that - Washing rock in tap water (at least the ENTIRE nitrifying rock in a tank) - MIGHT cause a mini-cycle. Whereas - a saltwater rinse/scrub does not. I think an RODI trial - x2 is warranted - 'just to see'. I have often taken 1 rock out of my display - and scrubbed/rinsed it in tap water - with no effect. This is somewhat different - in that all of the rock was rinsed.

But - even saying that above - the key - as I'm sure @brandon429 and others would say - my guess is that the average load of fish in a tank would not produce 2 ppm ammonia in a day - thus - even if you rinsed all your rock in tap water - you might not see a problem - depending on pH.

Waiting for @Dan_P and @taricha and @brandon429's comments

and another

 

[Garf]

I think after 3 different people's experiments - that - Washing rock in tap water (at least the ENTIRE nitrifying rock in a tank) - MIGHT cause a mini-cycle. Whereas - a saltwater rinse/scrub does not. I think an RODI trial - x2 is warranted - 'just to see'. I have often taken 1 rock out of my display - and scrubbed/rinsed it in tap water - with no effect. This is somewhat different - in that all of the rock was rinsed.

But - even saying that above - the key - as I'm sure @brandon429 and others would say - my guess is that the average load of fish in a tank would not produce 2 ppm ammonia in a day - thus - even if you rinsed all your rock in tap water - you might not see a problem - depending on pH.

Waiting for @Dan_P and @taricha and @brandon429's comments

and another

I agree, the aim is to keep the total ammonia level at normal pH below 1.4ppm nh4, and that’s quite a lot, a lot more than I would be comfortable with. It’s great folks like you can make a not inconsiderable effort in time and expense to evidence this for us with experiments.

 

[Dan_P]

I think after 3 different people's experiments - that - Washing rock in tap water (at least the ENTIRE nitrifying rock in a tank) - MIGHT cause a mini-cycle. Whereas - a saltwater rinse/scrub does not. I think an RODI trial - x2 is warranted - 'just to see'. I have often taken 1 rock out of my display - and scrubbed/rinsed it in tap water - with no effect. This is somewhat different - in that all of the rock was rinsed.

But - even saying that above - the key - as I'm sure @brandon429 and others would say - my guess is that the average load of fish in a tank would not produce 2 ppm ammonia in a day - thus - even if you rinsed all your rock in tap water - you might not see a problem - depending on pH.

Waiting for @Dan_P and @taricha and @brandon429's comments

and another

No pearls of wisdom today. Enjoying the data though.

 

[MnFish1]

No pearls of wisdom today. Enjoying the data though.

But you always have pearls of wisdom. It will take at least a couple days - probably to get back to 2ppm/24 hours. PS - I'm buying some prime

 

[MnFish1]

So are we sayin, after a small sample size that washin stuff in tap is bad? Didn’t we all know that anyway? In my freshwater days the general wisdom was to use tank water to clean filters, not tap.

Actually - no we didnt know that 'for sure' - it makes sense that it would be - if one washed all of their tank rock, etc with tap water

But - I think some important takeaways:

1. Washing a couple rocks in tap water - out of a tank is not likely to cause any problem
2. As @brandon429 would probably and rightly say - the stress of expecting rock rinsed in chlorinated tap water (all the rock) - and then exposing it immediately to 2 ppm - is far above whats done in a rip-clean. I.e. fish etc are not going to produce 2 ppm immediately. Thus - its probably ok to even rinse your rock in tap water - after scrubbing for a short period. - in other words - why waste salt water.
3. Contrary to what a lot of people would have thought - the nitrifiers come back quite quickly.
4. I rinse all my freshwater filters in tap water - and I have no problem. at all.
5. Its an interesting experiment - because - it confirmed the results of @Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer. for the most part.
6. I now have 2 tanks full of cycled rock - with which other experiments can be done. So - if anyone has suggesting - fire away.
7. I think we showed that the tank itself is not a big ammonia remover.

My ideas:

1. I've ditched the idea of rinsing with RODI - too much time - the tap water didn't do THAT much damage.
2. Experiments with the Seachem alert badge and API ammonia test - vis-a-vis prime as a detoxifier - in vivo and in vitro. Rock will go back in the tank.
a. a test with ever increasing ammonia levels one with something living (I have to find something with no brain - i.e not a fish - I was thinking brine shrimp) - in a tank with prime and with no prime IDK still thinking.
b. Just adding low amounts of ammonia - to 2 tanks with nothing in it (i.e. no rock) - and a new Seachem alert - in each - and adding prime to one - and watching. The key here - is that the Seachem alert does not fall from 'alert' to 'safe' as fast as it goes from 'safe' to 'alert'.

Anyway - 2 basically identical tanks - if anyone has other experiments - happy to consider - and @Lasse - I know you want the low -dose nitrite - and I am considering just repeating some - with every 6 hour measurements - with a full complement of testing. But - Its Christmas, etc - and not extremely easy with travel, etc.

 

[brandon429]

What I like about this data set and summary is we never got the pinpoint measures that are being logged above in rip clean threads we have to guess at what's happening off the animals and overall outcome


the differences between tap rinsing only a section of the tank's rocks in extreme dinos jobs vs common rip cleans where only saltwater was used is nicely contrasted here

nice to see it all detailed here especially with pics to provide scaling ratios we can expect from full size tanks

various stages of rock quality were used, that's awesome. it was nice to see what knurled aged live rock does vs barren but cycled rock

this shows what people can really expect in various depths of rip cleaning commitment where we don't have to guess

this study can boost the confidence level of folks under invasion so they feel better taking decisive command over certain conditions in their tank...its no longer about the fearful loss of bacteria in all settings nowadays

 

[MnFish1]

Yes exactly
didnt you block me?

 

[MnFish1]

Yes exactly
didnt you block me?

BTW - that was a joke @brandon429

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Finally had the brain power to read through enough of the thread to contribute. Really great data and conclusions that seem to match up with the previous tests to a point. Unless one has a super high bioload then a scrub down with FW or SW shouldn't crash a tank. This has jogged my mind about sand rinses and rip-cleans with regards to clearing out sand bed debris. I would expect a similar result in a drop of nitrification but likely not enough to cause a huge issue. Trying to wrap my head around an experiment with a rip clean but without considering real tank factors this would be hard to do. In about 6 months I will be moving all three of my tanks again (rip cleans and all) and would love to take down some data during the move and/or do an experiment prior.

 

[MnFish1]

Finally had the brain power to read through enough of the thread to contribute. Really great data and conclusions that seem to match up with the previous tests to a point. Unless one has a super high bioload then a scrub down with FW or SW shouldn't crash a tank. This has jogged my mind about sand rinses and rip-cleans with regards to clearing out sand bed debris. I would expect a similar result in a drop of nitrification but likely not enough to cause a huge issue. Trying to wrap my head around an experiment with a rip clean but without considering real tank factors this would be hard to do. In about 6 months I will be moving all three of my tanks again (rip cleans and all) and would love to take down some data during the move and/or do an experiment prior.

I think what it clearly shows - is that saltwater scrubbing and rinsing has no affect on nitrification - whether in a lit or dark tank - and the 2 Rinsing with warm tap water does - but as you say - lets say you rinsed 1/2 of your rock in tap water - it would recover before a significant amount of ammonia would re-accumulate.

By the way when I say 'Rinsed' - I mean like almost like a power wash (i.e. it was a REALLY good rinse).

What I also think we can conclude - is that nitrifying bacteria don't just keep multiplying until they cover 'everything' - but rather they multiply (probably on all the rock surfaces) - but unless they have an over-abundance of 'food' - they do not keep growing. Which is why we could see a progression of nitrifying capability during the first 3 experiments - as the baseline number of bacteria increased to be able to process 2 ppm/24 hours.

 

[Duncan62]

Several people have been kind enough (@Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer) to do a couple experiments and comment (@Lasse, @Dan_P, @taricha) on the effects of freshwater and scrubbing live rock on nitrifying capacity (whether by bacteria, algae or both). These experiments are meant to repeat and extend those experiments.

Goals:

1. Validate (or not) the results of @Coxey81 - which showed that after freshwater scrub/rinse that the nitrifying ability of rock originally from a dark sump area in a cycled tank loses about 80% of ammonia removal after freshwater rinse and scrub.
2. Validate (or not) the results of @sixty_reefer - which showed that after freshwater soaking for multiple minutes affected the nitrifying ability as well - His rock was exposed to light, had algae, and was from a lit tank - but only lost about 50 % of ammonia removal capacity
3. Evaluate Nitrite, Nitrate as well. Evaluate changes in Phosphate during testing.
4. Is there a change in ammonia removing ability between using 'saltwater rinse and scrub' and 'freshwater rinse and scrub'.
5. EDIT - Try to determine whether the tank and equipment (without rock) contain significant nitrification ability (in the dark)

Tank Parameters:

1. 1 lb rock/gallon.
2. 78 degrees.
3. pH - constant based on where salt mixes with RODI. Using Brightwell Marine.
4. Flow via marineland powerhead.
5. Salinity at 1.026 - maintained with Top off as needed with RODI.

Experiment(s):

1. Repeat @Coxey81's experiment
Step 1. Set up tank, add rock to 1 lb (or so) per gallon, heat to 78 degrees. add powerhead. (rock has been in dark sump - high flow area for >5 years)
2. Add 4 drops Dr. Tims (per instructions - as Coxey did) - which resulted in a high ammonia level - but - according to Dr. Tim's instructions should not cause a problem.
3. See if ammonia is processed in 24 hours.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until the ammonia is processed in 24 hours. IF repeated steps are needed I PLAN (Comments?) to dose water containing 2 ppm ammonia (measured before adding to tank)
5. Hereafter is where things will change (a little) - After the tank/rock can process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours (rinsed tank between uses) - will do the same RINSE (BUT IN SALTWATER) as @Coxey81 - which I believe was a soak in water, followed by scrubbing and rinsing for 1-3 minutes.
6. Then - I will again check to see if 2 ppm ammonia can be processed in 24 hours. If so - I will repeat step 5 - using FRESH water (tank temp) per the same protocol.
7. If after step 5 or 6, ammonia is not processed in 24 hours, will continue every 12 hour testing until it is processed.
8. At this point - re-verify if 2 ppm ammonia can be processed.
EDIT - 9. Then remove the rock, add 2 ppm ammonia and determine how long it will take to process ammonia.

After this I think I will take some old rock covered with various 'stuff' from the lit tank - and repeat the 2 experiments above - which will hopefully document @sixty_reefer's experiment.

I am going to try to borrow a seneye if possible.

I will use API tests to measure ammonia - along with another one. I will purchase 2 separate kits - to check for any errors.

I will also measure ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH daily or 2x day depending on where we are in the experiment.

po4 will be measured at the beginning and end of each experiment.

Curious. Why test for nitrite? According to this forum it is harmless until it kills your fish. Just trying to track cycle or does nitrite levels really matter to wildlife?

 

[brandon429]

I think folks like to see nitrite dynamics so they can have a complete picture of nitrification dynamics.

Thats my takeaway learning over tussling with Lasse for four straight years on the matter - it is a legit piece of the pie and if someone wants to see the whole pie they evaluate nitrite as well. I understand that Lasse from your writing and posts

The only reason I took on nitrite measure as an arch enemy was because new tank cyclers would buy four repeat bottles of cycling bacteria if api nitrite said to, the hobby wasn’t using Randy’s article as a safety reference over nitrite concerns while it’s a reliable reference- and combined with the Dr Tims videos online stating it stalls cycles I felt it was unfair for them to assume they need to re buy his products or anyone’s bottle bac over and over to earn a fair and accurate start date.


Additionally, fear of nitrite noncompliance keeps them all from dedicated study in the disease forum where procedures having nothing to do with cycling affect fish lifespan to the highest degree of anything that kills fish after theyre brought home and installed in the tank. I view nitrite status as a top distraction in determining start dates but enjoy seeing how it behaves when people who wield the test accurately can relate it to various reefing actions.

 

[MnFish1]

Curious. Why test for nitrite? According to this forum it is harmless until it kills your fish. Just trying to track cycle or does nitrite levels really matter to wildlife?

1. It can interfere with nitrate testing.
2. It would be difficult to get levels high enough to 'kill' fish - but - there is also a feeling that though it isn't 'deadly' - it may cause gill or other damage and have longer term effects.
3. People follow it to 'track their cycle'.

 

[Duncan62]

1. It can interfere with nitrate testing.
2. It would be difficult to get levels high enough to 'kill' fish - but - there is also a feeling that though it isn't 'deadly' - it may cause gill or other damage and have longer term effects.
3. People follow it to 'track their cycle'.

Thanks. I've read and been here told it was of no importance to cycling any longer. Hope your experiment goes well..

 

[brandon429]

I too heard from Dr.Z‘s posts about gill harm risk. It’s the only post I have seen mention it, Randy’s article doesn’t mention it as a risk in the context of a reef display tank, in the back-and- forth posts about nitrite studies there were pics from a book from the seventies or sixties on nitrite harm having 100% nothing to do with the context of cycling a reef tank (the surface area and bacteria we employ don’t permit such buildup) nor do the harm risk posts address the max nitrite that can be produced from the common ammonia levels we dose initially and that conversion assumes somehow the oxidation to nitrate has stopped for some reason. It’s all below toxicity concerns and completely part of a sales hype that drives a core aspect of bottle bac sales marketing in my opinion.

there has been no gill harm pattern or symptoms presented in cycle studies that omit nitrite data. The proponents of harm are always trying to sell asymptomatic risks, and even though we only have rough patterned posts about fish fare where low level nitrite may be present when fish are added quickly after setup (thousands are searchable) the crew that paints ongoing risk don’t even have one up to date reference nor a single necropsy picture showing gill harm to prove any instance.


harm comes from skipping fallow and quarantine. The vast majority of help posts and fish loss posts in the disease forum waited out the cycle to total nitrite compliance before stocking fish.

MN I was determined not to turn your post into carbon copy nitrite battles, I’ve faltered dang it - its irresistible.

 

[MnFish1]

I too heard from Dr.Z‘s posts about gill harm risk. It’s the only post I have seen mention it, Randy’s article doesn’t mention it as a risk in the context of a reef display tank, in the back-and- forth posts about nitrite studies there were pics from a book from the seventies or sixties on nitrite harm having 100% nothing to do with the context of cycling a reef tank (the surface area and bacteria we employ don’t permit such buildup) nor do the harm risk posts address the max nitrite that can be produced from the common ammonia levels we dose initially and that conversion assumes somehow the oxidation to nitrate has stopped for some reason. It’s all below toxicity concerns and completely part of a sales hype that drives a core aspect of bottle bac sales marketing in my opinion.

there has been no gill harm pattern or symptoms presented in cycle studies that omit nitrite data. The proponents of harm are always trying to sell asymptomatic risks, and even though we only have rough patterned posts about fish fare where low level nitrite may be present when fish are added quickly after setup (thousands are searchable) the crew that paints ongoing risk don’t even have one up to date reference nor a single necropsy picture showing gill harm to prove any instance.


harm comes from skipping fallow and quarantine. The vast majority of help posts and fish loss posts in the disease forum waited out the cycle to total nitrite compliance before stocking fish.

MN I was determined not to turn your post into carbon copy nitrite battles, I’ve faltered dang it - its irresistible.

No worries - @Lasse has also mentioned it. I believe - I'm just saying - I'm going to try - in the next session - to measure nitrite more often. . Merry Christmas

 

[brandon429]

I’ll be glad to see how you document its action you are among the trusted api conductors


its a group of four total



ok five if we count Dr. Reef

 

[MnFish1]

Finally had the brain power to read through enough of the thread to contribute. Really great data and conclusions that seem to match up with the previous tests to a point. Unless one has a super high bioload then a scrub down with FW or SW shouldn't crash a tank. This has jogged my mind about sand rinses and rip-cleans with regards to clearing out sand bed debris. I would expect a similar result in a drop of nitrification but likely not enough to cause a huge issue. Trying to wrap my head around an experiment with a rip clean but without considering real tank factors this would be hard to do. In about 6 months I will be moving all three of my tanks again (rip cleans and all) and would love to take down some data during the move and/or do an experiment prior.

It is my opinion - that especially in a 'deep' sand bed - that its the kicking up of sulphur and other chemicals/bacteria - that cause problems. (i.e. in normally anaerobic (without oxygen)

 

[MnFish1]

FYI - the tanksagain took about 36 hours to fully (down to zero - with API) - the ammonia. Do people think that RODI rinses will be helpful? - or not? LMK - I'll add more ammonia tomorrow to again document 2 ppm