Oxydators and their fight against parasites.

[atoll]

You cannot prove a negative, so, I won’t spend any lab time trying to prove the Oxydator does not work. So let’s move to looking for solid evidence for the many claims. I like your math example. It represents something a bit more substantial than anecdotal evidence to discuss.

Since we do not know the O2 level with and without the Oxydator in the aquarium in your example, claiming the Oxydator oxygenates the aquarium water to any significant degree is an assumption. We also do not know the normal flux of O2 from the atmosphere to the aquarium water per day, and therefore, we cannot tell whether the potential extra oxygen from the Oxydator really matters. Why “potential“ oxygen? As you rightly pointed out earlier, the fate of H2O2 is highly dependent on many things, Fe content and organic matter concentration being just two of them. Whether the H2O2 from the Oxydator increases the oxygen in the system or is removed from the system by oxidizing organic matter is unknown. In turn, because the distribution of H2O2 between these two fates is unknown, the amount of oxygen added by the Oxydator is unknown. All this makes claims about the Oxydator adding a substantial amount of oxygen questionable.

Dan

Would you accept a measurable increase in redox using an Oxydator would prove an increase in O2 in the aquarium?

 

[Dan_P]

Would you accept a measurable increase in redox using an Oxydator would prove an increase in O2 in the aquarium?

I wonder. Isn’t the ORP measurement more than detecting oxygen? I think pH can affect ORP. I have seen reports of H2O2 decreasing ORP, and organic carbon can decrease ORP as well. I think we need to measure an increase in O2 to prove an Oxydator can increase O2 content.

Couple more thoughts. One experiment I would set up to observe O2 production by the Oxydator would be in 35 ppt sodium chloride. I think this would remove all interfering variables. Next, I would do an exploratory experiment by adding aquarium water to the 35 ppt salt solution and measure both O2 and H2O2 concentrations over time. I think this might provide some insight into how O2 production might be affected by the organic carbon in aquarium water. I would certainly like to know if chelated iron is more or less detrimental to O2 production. And when I feed the aquarium, and could use a boost of oxygen, do I actually get less from the Oxydator?

 

[atoll]

I wonder. Isn’t the ORP measurement more than detecting oxygen? I think pH can affect ORP. I have seen reports of H2O2 decreasing ORP, and organic carbon can decrease ORP as well. I think we need to measure an increase in O2 to prove an Oxydator can increase O2 content.

Couple more thoughts. One experiment I would set up to observe O2 production by the Oxydator would be in 35 ppt sodium chloride. I think this would remove all interfering variables. Next, I would do an exploratory experiment by adding aquarium water to the 35 ppt salt solution and measure both O2 and H2O2 concentrations over time. I think this might provide some insight into how O2 production might be affected by the organic carbon in aquarium water. I would certainly like to know if chelated iron is more or less detrimental to O2 production. And when I feed the aquarium, and could use a boost of oxygen, do I actually get less from the Oxydator?

So your not sure then.
Regarding the rest why not do it and report back and you will have your science.

 

[Dan_P]

So your not sure then.
Regarding the rest why not do it and report back and you will have your science.

More accurately put, the casual ORP measurement is a not valid test for oxygen concentration. That I am sure of

If the Oxydator is really important for aquarium management, I would hope that someone has already studied the Oxydator and H2O2 fate. That’s why I pop in every so often to shake the hornets nest. I keep hoping the data will fall out before I get too badly stung.

 

[Anthony Scholfield]

I thought i would share one observation i've had thus far, even though its only been two days.

I installed the oxydator in the morning and went to bed (i work nights). When i got up and looked at the tank i kind of did a double take on the water crispness. I thought maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me or i was seeing what i wanted to see and kind of dismissed it. I would look at my other two systems and that system throughout the day and just couldnt get over the extra crispiness of the one with an oxydator.

 

[Lasse]

There is two positive clams with the oxydator and you put them against each other in order to put out a smoke screen in a pseudoscientific discussion.

It does not matter for me if the oxygen level increase or if produce active radicals that oxidize organic matter - it will in the end up with the same result - more oxygen in the aquarium. If it produce O2 direct - more oxygen - if it oxidize organic matters - less of the "normal" oxygen will be consumed in that oxidation process that will be sooner or later. And if it is mostly oxidizing organic matters - the water will be cleaner and more O2 will be formed. What´s will happen - if O2 will be formed or if organic matters will be oxidized is a question of what the released O atom first will reach - another O atom or some organic matters.

And with the iron - the iron will not consume any O atoms - it will serve as an catalyst for the broke down of H2O2 into H2O and O.

For me - that has been working in the fish farm industry - it is rather laughable to see how you try to dodge a question that you have zero experience with. One of our standard procedures in a power break down at the farm was to measure the oxygen level with an handhold oxygen meter and put in some hydrogen peroxid in the water if it get to low. This was a catfish farm and we feed every 1 000 L tank with between 1 - 2 kg pellets a day - there was no lack of organic matter in that water nor lack of fish (a density of 100 - 300 Kg/ 1000 L) We withhold the oxygen level as long as we had hydrogen peroxide. I have also use the same trick in a farm that use waste water. BOD7 in these tanks around 100 mg/L. We managed a 10 hours power break down in that tank with only help of hydrogen peroxide. And yes - I use an oxygen meter in order to know when to add or not. We normally use 50 ml 35% H2O2 in a 10 liters bucket (50 ml H2O2 to 9950 ml tap water) and put around a liter/a time into the fish tanks. Not much H2O2 but a great result

A friend of mine was in the ground zero of the worst storm happened in Sweden in modern times. He had rather many heavy populated cichlid tanks and he managed to withhold their lives during several days with help of dosing H2O2.

I have always H2O2 at my shelf - if I get a power break down. When I have power break downs - I place my Oxydator A in the DT (it is normally in the sump) and the longest period I have been out for power is 10 hours - and it was during nighttime where there is no internal produced oxygen - only consumption. With the oxydator in the DT - it was no problem to manage the oxygen. I had a smaller one in the refugium in these occasions too.

You are welcome to do experiments - I do not need to do them - I have already so much own experiences and facts of using hydrogen peroxide in different applications that I can only sit here and see my fish survive power breakdowns and other disasters.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

More accurately put, the casual ORP measurement is a not valid test for oxygen concentration. That I am sure of

If the Oxydator is really important for aquarium management, I would hope that someone has already studied the Oxydator and H2O2 fate. That’s why I pop in every so often to shake the hornets nest. I keep hoping the data will fall out before I get too badly stung.

Nobody said an Oxydator was "really important for aquarium management" an Oxydator is a tool IMO a desirable tool just like a skimmer and like a skimmer you can have a successful tank without one as we have seen, same with ozone or UV . You never answered my question however.
Science can often be wrong or the conclusion or method is. I along with many, have experimented with Oxydators over many years but the science would be wrong as we are not scientists and have nothing to sell you.

Schotting is a german company and I am sure they have the science you seek so why not write to them for your science or do as I suggest and do your own experiments? I am a retired carpenter and building projects manager not a scientist nor so interested in the deep science you seek. What I am interested in is over the 30 years I have been using Oxydators in many tanks they have worked the same in all. That's practical not science of course.

There will be variables of course and you can call the results anecdotal, a placebo effect even meaningless if you wish. Some will accept doing the same thing 10 or 13 times and getting the same affect more than that and meaningless if so, so be it. People can make up their own minds.

Let's just agree that hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidized and that there is more to an Oxydator than meets the eye probably because it's so simple and been around so many years if it was snake oil it would have vanished many many years ago, you don't have to agree that last bit.

 

[RobB'z Reef]

I just installed my first oxydator! It is an oxydator A in a water volume of approx. 40 gallons. I am diluting 35% hydrogen peroxide down to about 7% and using 2 catalysts. We will see if i notice anything or not. Either way i like the idea of oxygen rich water.

Can you post the link to where you got yours?

 

[Anthony Scholfield]

Can you post the link to where you got yours?

Sure thing!

Sochting Oxydator

The oldest provider of freshwater invertebrates in the US, The Shrimp Tank is your source for the best shrimp products from around the world. Visit today!

www.theshrimptank.com

 

[John Reefer Vermont]

Has anyone determine the cost benefits, long term, between an Oxydator and simply purchasing a O2 bottle, such as the bottles used by patients requiring extra oxygen?. Or even an oxygen concentrator?

 

[Lasse]

O2 bottle, such as the bottles used by patients requiring extra oxygen?. Or even an oxygen concentrator?

For me - a benefit with the oxydator is that it release free oxygen radicals too. Clearing the water and oxidate organic matter. The other two does not. I would be very careful with an oxygen concentrator. They not only concentrate oxygen - they can bring with nitrogen gas (no one is 100 % effective) - and over pressured nitrogen gas can cause the bend in fishes (named bubble disease in fish litterature) when it be released in the aquarium.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[RobB'z Reef]

For me - a benefit with the oxydator is that it release free oxygen radicals too. Clearing the water and oxidate organic matter. The other two does not. I would be very careful with an oxygen concentrator. They not only concentrate oxygen - they can bring with nitrogen gas (no one is 100 % effective) - and over pressured nitrogen gas can cause the bend in fishes (named bubble disease in fish litterature) when it be released in the aquarium.

Sincerely Lasse

not to mention a potential fire hazard.

 

[M Stein]

Could I use a dosing pump or dripper to dose H2O2 instead?
And if so, how much should I dose and do I need to have a catalyst somewhere in the tank?

 

[John Reefer Vermont]

For me - a benefit with the oxydator is that it release free oxygen radicals too. Clearing the water and oxidate organic matter. The other two does not. I would be very careful with an oxygen concentrator. They not only concentrate oxygen - they can bring with nitrogen gas (no one is 100 % effective) - and over pressured nitrogen gas can cause the bend in fishes (named bubble disease in fish litterature) when it be released in the aquarium.

Sincerely Lasse

I am not looking for introducing any radicals in the water or to treat any decease just want to find a way to add oxygen to the water. I have tested decomposing H2O2 in a bottle, collecting the air and piping it to the tank. My question is "has anyone conducted a cost analysis when dosing oxygen via Oxydators, oxygen concentrators and pressurized ozigen bottles?

 

[Lasse]

Cost in Sweden:

a 5 L oxygen flask including first fill -> $260 every coming fill - $56-
Content 5L*200 bar -> 10000L - amount oxygen gas 25 degree C -> 1L around 1.5 g -> 15,000 g
Measurement equipment - I use the cost for GHL oxygen meter -> around $500
Dosing equipment - around -> $100

Total to start around $900 - I use around 20 g during 1 week -> before first fill around 75 weeks - 1.5 year - every extra 1.5 year -> $56
15 years cost (with initial cost) ->$900 + $500 -> $1400 or $93 a year - not taking with cost for maintenance of probes and other things

Oxydator - initial cost $60
1 L 12% H2O2 from the manufaktur -> $10
1L contain around 100 g O2
I use around 20 g/week
Total start cost with 5 weeks run ->$70 - add 70 more weeks (14 refill a $10) =$70+ $140 = $210
No need of measurement and management equipment
15 years incl initial cost $210 + 9*$70 = $840 -> $56 a year - no maintenance needs

Cost for a useful oxygen concentrator is very high and it needs a storage container too - not any idea to try too calculate this.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[John Reefer Vermont]

Cost in Sweden:

a 5 L oxygen flask including first fill -> $260 every coming fill - $56-
Content 5L*200 bar -> 10000L - amount oxygen gas 25 degree C -> 1L around 1.5 g -> 15,000 g
Measurement equipment - I use the cost for GHL oxygen meter -> around $500
Dosing equipment - around -> $100

Total to start around $900 - I use around 20 g during 1 week -> before first fill around 75 weeks - 1.5 year - every extra 1.5 year -> $56
15 years cost (with initial cost) ->$900 + $500 -> $1400 or $93 a year - not taking with cost for maintenance of probes and other things

Oxydator - initial cost $60
1 L 12% H2O2 from the manufaktur -> $10
1L contain around 100 g O2
I use around 20 g/week
Total start cost with 5 weeks run ->$70 - add 70 more weeks (14 refill a $10) =$70+ $140 = $210
No need of measurement and management equipment
15 years incl initial cost $210 + 9*$70 = $840 -> $56 a year - no maintenance needs

Cost for a useful oxygen concentrator is very high and it needs a storage container too - not any idea to try too calculate this.

Sincerely Lasse

The cost for me is approx. 220 for 20 liters, not 5 liters and then the refill would be 20 dollars. The regulator would be less than 50 dollars.
The oxydator you are suggesting is intended to put in the tank. I suppose I can use that but what is the comparison formula with the numbers I provided. I guess what I am looking for is the cost per gram of O2 by both options.

Another question is how many grams of O2 would I need to oversaturate saltwater to its maximum capacity?

 

[Lasse]

25 degree C saltwater is 100 % saturated at around 6.7 - 7 mg/L O2

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tang22]

Could I use a dosing pump or dripper to dose H2O2 instead?
And if so, how much should I dose and do I need to have a catalyst somewhere in the tank?

If an Oxydator is a way to dose Hydrogen Peroxide without electricity, I'd like to know the answer to this question as well. Anyone? tks

 

[PeterC99]

If an Oxydator is a way to dose Hydrogen Peroxide without electricity, I'd like to know the answer to this question as well. Anyone? tks

No - an Oxydator uses a catylist to convert Hydrogen Peroxide to oxygen.

Water quality goes up tremendously with an Oxydator. The Oxydator's oxidizing capacity will improve your water quality and many harmful contaminants in your water will be neutralized. Oxydator’s are also an aid to fighting algae problems.

 

[atoll]

No - an Oxydator uses a catylist to convert Hydrogen Peroxide to oxygen.

Water quality goes up tremendously with an Oxydator. The Oxydator's oxidizing capacity will improve your water quality and many harmful contaminants in your water will be neutralized. Oxydator’s are also an aid to fighting algae problems.

One of the things often missed about the Oxydator is its ability to nullify ammonia by turning it into nitrate.