Randy's Elements to Dose

[Harpo]

Thanks again

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are both welcome .

Happy Reefing.

 

[Marc Pardon]

I do remember Craig's article. I cannot see any chemical better for dosing fluoride than sodium fluoride, perhaps at higher dilution before adding it.

I don't know that I would conclude it typically gets depleted very fast. Is that what you observed? Plenty of folks not dosing it see fluoride at some level. The Triton test I used years ago did not check it.

Yes, the depletion is very high and stabilizes at 0,5 ppm in my situation if i stop dosing. If i want to chase a natural level (1,5 ppm) which is "advized", i need to dose a lot per day. Due to the little damage i stopped this procedure. Curious if somebody tried this also and wins this game and how much is needed and if he had any disadvantages like i did .....

I dosed 1 ml per day in a 700 liter system of a 27 gram sodiumfluoride dissolved in 1 liter Ro. Solution contains 11,2 gram fluoride. The raise i create is than 11,2 / 1000 / 700 = 0,016 ppm.

Perhaps you are right and i need to dillute this more ....but the correction doses adviced with an ATI and Fauna Marin ICP are much higher and lasts a few days .....like there is not a depletion

 

[cjtabares]

Makes me really wish all for reef had iron and potassium....

I thought it did have iron?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I thought it did have iron?

It apparently has some:

The yellow or pale-brownish color of All-For-Reef is caused by iron, manganese and maybe iodine while the colors of K+ and A- Elements is achieved with a minute amount of a harmless dye.

Help mixing Tropic Marin All-For-Reef Powder

So shouldn't the bottle be more than 2/3 full then? Did you add 160g to 1L of water? Looks like not enough water in the photo? And was the water very hot? 100f isn't very hot.. that's barely warm to the touch. I use a hot plate and it feels warm but I can keep my hand on the container...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[cjtabares]

It apparently has some:

The yellow or pale-brownish color of All-For-Reef is caused by iron, manganese and maybe iodine while the colors of K+ and A- Elements is achieved with a minute amount of a harmless dye.

Help mixing Tropic Marin All-For-Reef Powder

So shouldn't the bottle be more than 2/3 full then? Did you add 160g to 1L of water? Looks like not enough water in the photo? And was the water very hot? 100f isn't very hot.. that's barely warm to the touch. I use a hot plate and it feels warm but I can keep my hand on the container...

www.reef2reef.com

Ok thanks. I just went and look for a list of ingredients to compare to what you would dose. Will probably look closer when I get to a computer.
organic calcium salts, salts of magnesium, strontium and trace elements (barium, boron, bromine, chrome,iron, fluorine, iodine, cobalt, copper, lithium, manganese, molybdenum, nickel, selenium, strontium, vanadium and zinc)

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

I dose 5 things normally:

**B Ionic 2 part Cal/Alk which I think has all trace elements also.
*Nitrate
*Phosphate
*Silica

I wonder, which of either ‘B Ionic 2 part’ or ‘All For Reef’ have higher Magnesium & trace elements. My Magnesium has been slightly low around 1125-1300 for a while now. I really don’t want to dose more things I already maxed out my 5 channel doser.

If All For Reef has higher of Magnesium+trace, I could dose it once a week manually and that would lower the amount of b ionic calcium alkalinity 2 part I’d dose?

Otherwise I guess I could probably dose Magnesium once a week or once every couple weeks, or even just whenever it tests low, then hope my B Ionic & water changes keep it close enough otherwise?

Or is 1125 fine and I shouldn’t worry about it?

 

[Kylesreeftank]

I'm a very firm believer that Iron+ Manganese dosing + Sodium Silicate is a very powerful solution against dinoflagellate blooms along with filtration. It's interesting because, frankly I'm 100% positive virtually all aquariums in the hobby have some amount of dinoflagellates and diatoms, but it's striking a "zone" where conditions aren't amazing for any of them, seems to be key. Trace element dosing can do good, but something I've found to be a boon is to always start slow with these elements, dose them one at a time and give them time to show a result before making a decision on what it does for a tank. Ultimately for myself, that meant waiting a week per element, doing the math, figuring out what my goal ppm was, whether or not a solution needed to be, or could be, diluted further, making a journal of observations and procedures, etc.

Sometimes I take that all for granted because I think coming from a science background, that's nothing out of the ordinary for me-- writing up SOP, reports, observations, test results, etc, and creating functions of those over time when I feel it's reasonable to do so such as with dKH.

"Reefing isn't hard"

But what IS hard is taking a step back and asking yourself as a reefer, "Do I actually understand what this does, how it breaks down, where it goes, how it moves through my system... " More often than not even as someone who has a understanding of some of these processes, I find myself asking these sorts of questions. While it would take a lifetime to understand it all, I believe that sitting down and thinking about those things ultimately is what separates the good reefer from the great reefer.

Keeping reef tanks is a lesson in systems thinking and unfortunately many reefers fall prey to the allure of splitting it down into individual parts for the sake of simplicity or convenience, when often times if they take a step back and look at the bigger picture, it might actually be an entirely different problem.

I really appreciate your posts Randy. Thanks for all you do. The sooner we all begin to think like chemists and biologists who look at, or at the very least attempt to grasp the entire system's element cycling, the better off we will be as reefers.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

**B Ionic 2 part Cal/Alk which I think has all trace elements also.

Don't be confused by the elements in ESV B-ionic. They ARE NOT a way to offset any consumption of those elements. Same applies to Balling Part C. Using each of these methods may actually lower an element if it is higher than NSW concentrations, and both act exactly like a tiny water change each day.

Here's how that works.

The main ingredients in ESV are sodium carbonate and calcium chloride.

After a coral uses the calcium and carbonate, sodium and chloride are left, raising salinity.

Since folks maintain salinity, there is a slight salinity correction needed.

Each time you make such a correction (whether you realize making the correction or not, but, say, skimming), the concentrations of ALL ions declines. For example, potassium declines from that salinity correction.

ESV (and TM in Balling Part C) add back exactly that amount of, say, potassium, lost by the salinity correction, and potassium is back to normal, In fact, everything is ideally back to normal.

Not all two parts act this way. Some claim to add extra trace elements, and that is fine, but ESV and Balling do not are thus are not ever intended to compensate for consumption of, say, potassium, by organisms.

Thus, ESV B-ionic does not contribute to overdosing any trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I really appreciate your posts Randy. Thanks for all you do. The sooner we all begin to think like chemists and biologists who look at, or at the very least attempt to grasp the entire system's element cycling, the better off we will be as reefers.

Thanks!

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Don't be confused by the elements in ESV B-ionic. They ARE NOT a way to offset any consumption of those elements. Same applies to Balling Part C. Using each of these methods may actually lower an element if it is higher than NSW concentrations, and both act exactly like a tiny water change each day.

Here's how that works.

The main ingredients in ESV are sodium carbonate and calcium chloride.

After a coral uses the calcium and carbonate, sodium and chloride are left, raising salinity.

Since folks maintain salinity, there is a slight salinity correction needed.

Each time you make such a correction (whether you realize making the correction or not, but, say, skimming), the concentrations of ALL ions declines. For example, potassium declines from that salinity correction.

ESV (and TM in Balling Part C) add back exactly that amount of, say, potassium, lost by the salinity correction, and potassium is back to normal, In fact, everything is ideally back to normal.

Not all two parts act this way. Some claim to add extra trace elements, and that is fine, but ESV and Balling do not are thus are not ever intended to compensate for consumption of, say, potassium, by organisms.

Thus, ESV B-ionic does not contribute to overdosing any trace elements.

I guess the way I thought of B-Ionic 2 part is:

Corals use up calcium and carbonate as well as magnesium etc, trace elements
You dose B Ionic based on Calcium and Alk measurements, and it's replenishing a rough amount of the other elements based on consumption of calc/alk.

Generally this should keep some peoples Magnesium and traces within a rough range right? You would mostly just dose things that are being consumed faster than others because of your tanks individual requirements? I'm trying to understand how what you said above should change my action. I think I understand what you said above, but I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with that information.

Also, what you said about adjusting for salinity even if we don't realize we are, the one place that comes to mind is water changes, and for me that's the only time I ever measure salinity or take actions based on salinity. So question, Would water changes generally correct for these small differences based on salinity increase from 2 part? I guess if my tank was reading 1.027 and I did water change at 1.025 to average out to 1.026 (simple fake numbers), I would effectively be adding not enough trace elements because I'm trying to account for high salinity that was a result of dosing 2 part. So with this being said, should we ALWAYS just do water change at exactly the correct number (e.g. 35ppt or ~1.026) so it brings up MISSING ELEMENTS, and brings down TOO HIGH ELEMENTS, REGARDLESS of what my tanks current salinity reads?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I guess the way I thought of B-Ionic 2 part is:

Corals use up calcium and carbonate as well as magnesium etc, trace elements
You dose B Ionic based on Calcium and Alk measurements, and it's replenishing a rough amount of the other elements based on consumption of calc/alk.

Nope. That is incorrect, but it is a common misunderstanding. What is correct is what I posted above, and ESV B-ionic is not useful nor is it intended to be a way to offset any trace element consumption.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Nope. That is incorrect, but it is a common misunderstanding. What is correct is what I posted above, and ESV B-ionic is not useful nor is it intended to be a way to offset any trace element consumption.

Sorry I edited my post I think after you replied. Can you check bottom part about water changes please And thanks for the information as always Randy!

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Nope. That is incorrect, but it is a common misunderstanding. What is correct is what I posted above, and ESV B-ionic is not useful nor is it intended to be a way to offset any trace element consumption.

The nuance of what you're saying is confusing for me lol. When we add 2 part, it adds magnesium etc, corals use this right? So what you're saying seems technically true, but my brain is having trouble understanding how if we add elements to the tank, we can also concurrently say, they're not "making up for" elements used by corals. But the corals are using them right? I'm sorry I'm confused here lol. I read your explanation like 8 times now and still don't understand. If these elements coming from 2 part "aren't making up for consumption of elements", then what is ? I guess just water changes? And you're saying 2 part just maintains levels in between water changes, but that the water changes or additional dosing are what are supplying the elements to the corals?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The nuance of what you're saying is confusing for me lol. When we add 2 part, it adds magnesium etc, corals use this right? So what you're saying seems technically true, but my brain is having trouble understanding how if we add elements to the tank, we can also concurrently say, they're not "making up for" elements used by corals. But the corals are using them right? I'm sorry I'm confused here lol. I read your explanation like 8 times now and still don't understand. If these elements coming from 2 part "aren't making up for consumption of elements", then what is ? I guess just water changes? And you're saying 2 part just maintains levels in between water changes, but that the water changes or additional dosing are what are supplying the elements to the corals?

Foods are a huge source of trace elements that folks ignore. Water changes are a small source. B-ionic may actually deplete trace elements despite adding them.

Perhaps this analysis from one of my articles will also help folks understand the issue:

One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In terms of trace element adding and removal, using B-ionic to add 1.1 dKH and 8 ppm of calcium per day is the same effect as about a 0.08% water change each day, or about 2.4% per month using natural seawater..

That water change can add some tiny amount of trace elements, or it can serve to very slowly lower those that are elevated.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

In terms of trace element adding and removal, using B-ionic to add 1.1 dKH and 8 ppm of calcium per day is the same effect as about a 0.08% water change each day, or about 2.4% per month using natural seawater..

That water change can add some tiny amount of trace elements, or it can serve to very slowly lower those that are elevated.

Very interesting. Thanks for the responses.

Are these something to be concerned about? I am currently doing 1 33% water change every 1-2months. If I mix at 35ppt each time, it should correct for these mostly right?

Are you saying feeding is the main replenisher of mag and traces? I have a 360gallon, very populated with coral, less populated with fish (I have to dose nitrates and phosphates) If so, if my mag is slightly low usually, would feeding more > dosing less nitrates/phosphates help?

I mean I could just start dosing magnesium like once a week to correct. I'm I guess hesitant to add more dosing (I dose 5 things already), but also I'm concerned that if magnesium is low, it's because I'm either doing something wrong (maybe I'm not considering the phenomenon of micro water changes you mentioned above), or just so much growth that I need to dose, but then does that mean I should be testing all other trace and dosing those too? I really prefer not to go down that road lol... I do ICP every like 6 months or so, and usually everything is within range, but recently magnesium per my home tests showing a bit low, between 1125-1250

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Feeding is not a way to get much magnesium, but for traces, I believe it is.

 

[i0nz]

Hey Randy, this may be off topic but I’m curious about Iodide in reef tanks. How exactly does it convert to Iodine and is there any benefit to dosing Iodide over Iodine? I was under the impression that it’s “safer” yet I’d like to hear your take on it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey Randy, this may be off topic but I’m curious about Iodide in reef tanks. How exactly does it convert to Iodine and is there any benefit to dosing Iodide over Iodine? I was under the impression that it’s “safer” yet I’d like to hear your take on it.

Iodine as I2 is not desirable and is largely unnatural in seawater. It is also reactive with tissues and that’s why do not recommend dosing it.

Seawater contains mostly iodate (IO3-), some iodide (I-) and a much smaller amount of organoiodine compounds of various sorts. I2, if present at all, is a much lower concentration and short lived form.