Randy's thoughts on trace elements

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Specifically why I seek a method to process organics and release all it's contents vs exporting it. Could oxidation solve that? Why you'll see me asking many questions about ozone and hydrogen peroxide combined with UV. Seeking a way to put it all together or understand why it won't work.

In the process of designing my main build and how I solve these issues affect it.

You might be able to find a way to full oxidize organics, but IMO it would be way more complicated than adding trace elements.

None of the oxidation methods we use appreciably reduce organics to CO2. They just react with and change the most readily oxidized bonds in the organics, which coincidentally reduces yellowing.

 

[JulesH]

Thank you for a very interesting article.

I work in the field of Oceanography primarily interested in the geomorphology of the sea bed for various reasons. The equipment we use is calibrated, we have procedures for its use with certain tolerances that must be adhered to. My point being, is that I have wondered about how the ICP test is carried out. I have used several companies here in the UK with varying results which does not give me a warm glowing feeling.

I have asked the question(s) about how their ICP tests are carried out and how they ensure accuracy and precision but some seem reluctant to 'spill the beans'.

I have a long standing issue with Dinos, I was considering using Sodium silicate (40%) solution, is this correct chemical? What sort of dosing levels would you recommend please?

 

[GARRIGA]

You might be able to find a way to full oxidize organics, but IMO it would be way more complicated than adding trace elements.

None of the oxidation methods we use appreciably reduce organics to CO2. They just react with and change the most readily oxidized bonds in the organics, which coincidentally reduces yellowing.

Not just about adding trace but also a self contained unit that reduces waste and my effort maintaining it. Thought process on continuing to reduce what exists. Thinking oxidation through frequent circulation of the same organics would eventually decompose them or accelerate the process. No clue. This stuff beyond my knowledge yet I still seek it because as I get older less effort becomes more important. Only so much time left and still lots not done yet.

I’m not afraid of complexity. Just understanding it. Can’t be that more complicated then requiring an overflow into socks or roller mat processed by skimmer fed into refugium with lighting then a reactor melting skeletons later polished before it’s returned and along the way might still require UV and carbon. Seeing some of these sumps with all the plumbing and cords makes my brain hurt just thinking that one day I might have to trouble shoot that mess.

Much easier to plumb a close loop system even if some of it recirculates to solve my concerns. If passing an oxidizer such as ozone or HP though a series of UV-C tubes with organics in the flow and get them zapped to release what they hold then I’ll go that route everyday and especially on Sundays so I can watch football or spend time with the family. Grand children going to take my time more often then not.

Crazy thoughts out of desperation where inventions and new paths evolve. Gotta be an easier way to enjoy nature at home and although for some tinkering is fun. I’ll gladly send water samples out for examination because even testing not fun.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for a very interesting article.

I work in the field of Oceanography primarily interested in the geomorphology of the sea bed for various reasons. The equipment we use is calibrated, we have procedures for its use with certain tolerances that must be adhered to. My point being, is that I have wondered about how the ICP test is carried out. I have used several companies here in the UK with varying results which does not give me a warm glowing feeling.

I have asked the question(s) about how their ICP tests are carried out and how they ensure accuracy and precision but some seem reluctant to 'spill the beans'.

Christoph at Oceamo is among the most open about the procedures and will answer both general and specific questions folks have. I also have more confidence that he knows what he is doing than some of the other labs:

Oceamo ICP-MS seawater accuracy and precision data

Dear all, @Randy Holmes-Farley, as in related threads before: If this has too much of an advertisment character, feel free to delete this posting. We try to regularly shed light onto the processes that happen within the Oceamo seawater laboratory. Im having the feeling that this openness is...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Hans-Werner]

Some articles on biological roles of

Rubidium and here
Lithium
and Barium has a similar role for mineralogy as strontium, it is an earth alkaline metal with larger ion diameter than calcium and will be incorporated into aragonite.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Much easier to plumb a close loop system even if some of it recirculates to solve my concerns. If passing an oxidizer such as ozone or HP though a series of UV-C tubes with organics in the flow and get them zapped to release what they hold then I’ll go that route everyday and especially on Sundays so I can watch football or spend time with the family. Grand children going to take my time more often then not.

I do not expect that to work usefully for release of trace elements, but I've never seen anyone try.

 

[GARRIGA]

I do not expect that to work usefully for release of trace elements, but I've never seen anyone try.

Trace aside. Not my main concern but does exist. Would recirculating oxidizers with organics through UVC continue decomposing/oxidizing them to the point what remains will just remain inert. With a closed looped system I can incorporate various size sediment filters and have one final size capturing the smallest particles which can then be tossed out. Goal is minimize tank maintenance and my involvement.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Some articles on biological roles of

Rubidium and here
Lithium
and Barium has a similar role for mineralogy as strontium, it is an earth alkaline metal with larger ion diameter than calcium and will be incorporated into aragonite.

Yes, I agree there are scattered reports on effects, but the Royal Society of Chemistry says there's no biological role for any of those.

Having no known biological role does not mean there is no effect when they may be added. Lithium is, for example, a useful drug.

Rubidium is known to substitute for potassium in many settings.

In the link you post, here's what it says for Rubidium. One example of goat issues. No other reports. How many papers were retracted in 2023?

More than 10,000 research papers were retracted in 2023 — a new record

The number of articles being retracted rose sharply this year. Integrity experts say that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

www.nature.com

10,000 in that one year alone. No one should be convinced by any single paper that is potentially at odds with others.

Here's what that link says:

Essential functions
NRC (2005) classified rubidium as a possible essential element. Under experimental conditions, rubidium deprivation of adults female goats resulted in abortion, lower birth weight, an increased mortality among kids and reduced weaning weights (Underwood & Suttle, 1999).

Other functions
No information was available on other functions of rubidium in principal literature sources.

Typical deficiency symptoms
Except in goats under experimental conditions (Chapter 3), no deficiency symptoms of rubidium have been reported in principal literature sources.

Animal requirements, allowances and use levels
No scientific bodies have established animal requirements for rubidium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Some articles on biological roles of

Rubidium and here
Lithium
and Barium has a similar role for mineralogy as strontium, it is an earth alkaline metal with larger ion diameter than calcium and will be incorporated into aragonite.

Without any doubt, barium is incorporated into aragonite. It looks like calcium but is bigger, and gets into the skeleton in place of calcium by accident. Same argument applies to strontium in coral skeletons, although strontium does have actual uses in other organisms. That incorporation is, I expect, where the misinformation originally arose that either strontium or barium was actually needed or useful for coral skeletons.

Uranium is also incorporated into coral skeletons. Does not mean it is useful or needed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That all said, aside from possibly wasting time and money, there is certainly no drawback to supplementing lithium, barium and rubidium to natural levels. i don't recommend it, but there's no risk if done appropriately.

 

[jda]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

I know that you have included these things here and there over many posts and even this thread, but do you happen to have a one-page list of elements and a recommendation to either 1). not dose without testing or 2). dose a reasonable amount without testing since it does not matter 3). never ever dose, or 4). something else. You have these for some things in your older RK articles for the major elements and compounds.

I know that nuance matters in a lot of this, but people skip most of the nuance anyway so a simple starting point might be OK.

For example:
Calcium - WITH testing when needed
Iron - drop some in and the level does not appear to matter much within reason
Magnesium - ratio of X:Y with calcium no need to test
Vibranium - never dose this
Krypton - only if you have Superman Corals
Iodine - nope
Iodate - ugh
Iodide - maybe with testing

If this exists and I missed it, then I am truly sorry.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Just referencing the fact many equate skimmers to foam seen on the beach. Most presented argument I've heard of why we need to use it.

No, many equate skimmers to foam seen on the beach to gross out our friends, lol.

Just because beach foam is caused by the same process that skimmers use (i.e.foam fractionation) doesn't mean that beach foam justifies using a skimmer in an aquarium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

I know that you have included these things here and there over many posts and even this thread, but do you happen to have a one-page list of elements and a recommendation to either 1). not dose without testing or 2). dose a reasonable amount without testing since it does not matter 3). never ever dose, or 4). something else. You have these for some things in your older RK articles for the major elements and compounds.

I know that nuance matters in a lot of this, but people skip most of the nuance anyway so a simple starting point might be OK.

For example:
Calcium - WITH testing when needed
Iron - drop some in and the level does not appear to matter much within reason
Magnesium - ratio of X:Y with calcium no need to test
Vibranium - never dose this
Krypton - only if you have Superman Corals
Iodine - nope
Iodate - ugh
Iodide - maybe with testing

If this exists and I missed it, then I am truly sorry.

I don't have this written out, but I can work on one.

 

[GARRIGA]

No, many equate skimmers to foam seen on the beach to gross out our friends, lol.

Just because beach foam is caused by the same process that skimmers use (i.e.foam fractionation) doesn't mean that beach foam justifies using a skimmer in an aquarium.

Agreed and point I'm making and why I don't use skimmers. Don't need another mechanical filter needing constant attention and they stink and gross me out, too

 

[tmo65]

I started dosing it cause I have a bunch of shrimps who molt obviously and I saw people always seem to be low on icp. Anywho for some weird reason my sps started getting crazy polyp extension and just much more fuzzier overall in just one week of dosing it. I’ve had some for close to a year with normal pe during the day that are reaching For the stars now, all day and night lol..

Interestin. What size is your tank and how did you come unworthy the dos

 

[Troylee]

Interestin. What size is your tank and how did you come unworthy the dos

Around 350 gallons wet. I just decided 2 drops a day wouldn’t hurt.. if I saw any negative effects I’d stop but I haven’t.

 

[Richsoar]

For those of us lower hierarchical reefers would you mind defining a few things, like ICP testing, GFO and what Organic Carbon dosing is?
Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For those of us lower hierarchical reefers would you mind defining a few things, like ICP testing, GFO and what Organic Carbon dosing is?
Thanks

Sure.

ICP is Inductively Coupled Plasma. It is a very sophisticated machine used by commercial send out services that will analyze a water sample for multiple ions such as manganese. Lots of threads on it.

Organic carbon dosing means adding an organic molecule to the water. Organisms including bacteria consume it and lower nutrients. There are commercial brands such as NOPOX, but also DIY using vodka or vinegar.

GFO is granular ferric oxide. A red/brown granular material that binds phosphate and silicate. (and also organics).

 

[jda]

I don't have this written out, but I can work on one.

If there is a way, I am willing to help with this. I was not wanting to heap stuff on you to do...

 

[ReefLife_Guy]

Vibranium

I think Wakanda is the only source for this nowadays but have a feeling it's very insoluble