Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

[LRT]

Probably super important to point nitrites is pretty much a non issue using @Lasse light measured feedings with cuc method.
Lasse have you tracked ammonia and nitrites with lab grade equipment through your light feed step?

 

[MnFish1]

https://www.algaebarn.com/blog/advanced/the-nitrogen-cycle-part-one-ammonia-oxidizers/ there is 2 parts to this but I'm struggling to find their reccomended set up guide. @AlgaeBarn could maybe link it?

Thanks!!

 

[brandon429]

I like how easy it is for non published folks to debate Randy’s link after trying to sub in a freshwater version. Lasse “sees it differently“ was the euphemism from another thread.


how about this option, what’s in the article applies to reef tanks till we get a replacement reef tank article on nitrite.

 

[MnFish1]

Like I said in not calling anyone out here. Mods have been super awesome to allow us to moderate ourselves as disappointing as it became sometimes.
I have to be 100% real i was extremely disappointed to see what I seen there and here as im sure anyone would have with an actual background and education in specific areas.
Major no no in my area of expertise to call people out and derail work unless you have more than words and actual work to back it up your claims.
Extremely unprofessional at best.

Except Brandon is calling me out - in fact - he mentioned the comments I made in another thread. In fact I Pmed those people earlier today - to offer to help if they are doing further experiments - and to say just so @brandon429 won't claim 'I'm insulting them' - in the future I will just PM them my comments. I hope that makes you happy @brandon429 - hopefully its good enough

 

[Lasse]

PS. I see everyone reference API testing, aren’t they supposed to be garbage anyway? I’ve always preferred and use Red Sea, Aqua Forest, Hanna or Salifert.

Hanna ammonia checker test is not rather good for saltwater. I do not think that the different total ammonia tests differ so much from each other - there is not so many methods to use. They are as bad or as good as everyone.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I like how easy it is for non published folk to debate the links after trying to sub in a freshwater version.

The quote was from Algae Barn - have they start with freshwater?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

I’ve spent years testing Randy’s advice in others cycles. Collectively we thank him for permission to stop the 90 day waits


I estimate any dry rock cycle ever done in my threads was nitrite positive when we stocked up the tank. The skip cycle systems aren’t nitrite positive, yet many still show positive anyway on api, we’ve no reliable way to use non digital kits shown recently. Digital hanna, post away I’m curious to know how nitrite expresses setup to setup.

 

[MnFish1]

Hanna ammonia checker test is not rather good for saltwater. I do not think that the different total ammonia tests differ so much from each other - there is not so many methods to use. They are as bad or as good as everyone.

Sincerely Lasse

I'm ok with API - if done correctly - and understood. As I posted before - .25 ammonia in the API test - is 'safe' - in the Seneye calculation. I wonder why no one has mentioned this before lol

 

[Little c big D]

That’s a freshwater assessment above. Not from a saltwater page.

here’s Sw

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

”None of the thirteen marine fish species for which I could find nitrite toxicity data had LC50 values below 100 ppm, and half had LC50 values of 1,000 - 3,000 ppm or more.”


when MN reminded us in another thread that low salinity qt systems need to concern I added that to a qt cycle recommendation on his behalf. It was a good reminder

That was from algae barn in direct relation to marine aquaria, however I'm not supporting it, only showing their write up.

 

[LRT]

Brandon was probably reffering to the pond snip that someone else posted.

 

[LRT]

This is a quote from their wrote up that I found interesting

What I find interesting is they don't say it is directly toxic but has an adverse side effect. To be fair this is out of my realm of knowledge and understanding. What are the thoughts on that? Also @Randy Holmes-Farley . Is this the process that salt negates?

Randy is probably trying to stay as far away from this thread as possible and just shaking his head.
Should have started this thread in his sub forum would have been great to get other chemist point of view.

 

[MnFish1]

See if this exchange, on someone else’s work thread, was helpful and from prior logged practice or work and did it increase learning in the thread, how did MN’s offers affect this thread in any way LRT’s thread may have been:

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...

www.reef2reef.com

so what’s the verdict, is the MO positive or helpful outcomes to threads?

outbound eval of others works, seeking out and focusing on possible bad outcomes, is the strict method.

The MO was positive. It helped the people involved re-think their thoughts - and testing. And it caused them to rethink experiments for the future - The problem with posting threads - is no one ever reads the whole thing - thus - posting a work thread - no one ever reads or analyzed all of the hundreds of comments - it becomes worthless IMHO.

This particular thread was 'does Prime actually detoxify ammonia'. Their conclusion was 'no'. My conclusion in the thread and repeated here is - IMHO - maybe - maybe not - but the tests in the thread IMHO do not prove it one way or the other. Detoxify is an in-vivo comment as compared to using in-vitro tests. Agree or disagree thats my perspective. I've already discussed with the people involved their experiments privately - complimented them several times in the thread. Just because I (or anyone else) does not agree with an experiment - does not mean a personal insult - if you're trying to make those kind of comments 'personal' - I think thats another mischaracterization. But - everyone here is an adult - they do not need you playing defense for them right?

 

[Little c big D]

Randy is probably trying to stay as far away from this thread as possible and just shaking his head.
Should have started this thread in his sub forum would have been great to get other chemist point of view.

Perhaps. I just hope to know if what they are alluding to is what he and others have determined to be non factors in saltwater or if is a different potential issue

 

[MnFish1]

I like how easy it is for non published folks to debate Randy’s link after trying to sub in a freshwater version. Lasse “sees it differently“ was the euphemism from another thread.


how about this option, what’s in the article applies to reef tanks till we get a replacement reef tank article on nitrite.

Use the quote function - no know knows what or whom youre talking about. Its really easy.

 

[brandon429]

no really I didn’t know that was for marine, from algae barn nice find then really.

I dont believe it when from retailers though, conflict of sales interest. Very pertinent to the thread though for counter point nice job nice find for opposing views.


@AlgaeBarn how are those written results so different from Randy’s article? I have been purposefully starting reefs in positive nitrite for years and see zero toxicity or indicators thereof

if you will post a thread where some animals died, or were burnt in a swirling high surface area reef tank after dosing typical bottle bac that will make a great supporting post. I can never get that kind of link no matter who I ask.


algae barn is it possible your writer transposed fw and marine data in the warning

 

[MnFish1]

no really I didn’t know that was for marine, from algae barn nice find then really.

I dont believe it when from retailers though, conflict of sales interest.

Can you use the quote function - no one knows what you're talking about?

 

[MnFish1]

Here is a work thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i-have-found-the-secret-to-cycling-a-tank-intantly.869041/

apparently - at least according to the responders - none of this is 'new news'. IIMHO - the new disucssion here is - using coral first before fish

 

[CnidaChris]

Here is a work thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i-have-found-the-secret-to-cycling-a-tank-intantly.869041/

apparently - at least according to the responders - none of this is 'new news'. IIMHO - the new disucssion here is - using coral first before fish

You beat me to it. But then again I’ve already said you can instantly stock a tank if you use live rock.

The main thing I would like to design a test for is finding the lower and upper limits of bioload based on a given volume or surface area. I know the old rule was 1lb of rock per gallon, but we have seen minimalist aquascapes that seem to thrive.

edit: Aqua scales to Aquascapes

 

[brandon429]

Well said Chris

 

[LRT]

Perhaps. I just hope to know if what they are alluding to is what he and others have determined to be non factors in saltwater or if is a different potential issue

I hear you man I really do. I feel like if the pros had all the answers so would we..
At the end of the day im erring to the responsible side as a hobbyist as precisely as i can thats all I can do.
We don't know it all its clearly evident. We have papers and testing and then we have other papers and testing and other points of view. Until we have more thats all we have.
I look at nitrites like second hand smoke or something that may be in the air thats harmful and poisonous at certain levels we don't fully understand.
I try to approach it in a way that's least harmful as I can.
Minimal feedings building bioloads is insane. @Lasse maybe should win the nobel reef prize. He hasn't shared lab grade testing of his method but I can tell you its set up in a way that all bases are covered.
I hope to uncover his secrets a little more precisely. The things he's not saying are important but I understand why he's not saying them.
Everything I've discussed will most likely line up with his lab grade testing im sure of it!
Either way i can responsibly say in at least the application i laid out its pretty much a really mute point.