SPS Healthy & Colorful but Not Growing, Zoas Partially Closed - Ca, Mg, Alk Barely Decline. Why?

[sgrosenb]

Thanks @HuduVudu ! I have been checking my Alk today and I don't want to get ahead of myself or get too excited, but I am seeing a clear decline in alkalinity for the first time ever with my Trident. Chart below. Awesomeness. I'm thinking this is a really, really good sign??? I don't care about how hot it is - if opening the windows for an hour at night and hour in the morning fixes my tank, I'm 100% doing it.

Unfortunately, I already have a few birdsnests and they are not growing They are staying alive, but not growing at all....

One last question on the kalkwasser - I've done a bunch of research and it seems like a great way to dose. Curious on plumbing though - I have my RODI water going straight to my tank with a pressure solenoid and float switch that regulates top-off water. I do not have an ATO reservoir. Any suggestions on how to plumb a kalkwasser reactor with that setup? I have plenty of dosing heads available on my GHL doser... but I don't want to add a reservoir that holds RODI water.

Thanks!
Scott

 

[proxy001]

@sgrosenb . Might seem like a random question but... any anemones in the tank?

 

[sgrosenb]

@proxy001 yep! I have one green bubble tip anemone. It's been in there for a solid 6+ months. Seems happy, but he's by no means "bubble" tip anymore - just kind of long and stringy. Why do you ask? I'm always interested in finding clues about what might be going on!

 

[proxy001]

@sgrosenb there are a few threads like yours. You are pushing it to the extreme, you are doing everything perfectly yet, no growth. I am in a very similar situation as yours. The theory on the other thread is that anemones create a chemical warfare with certain corals, namely SPS.
Im sure the experienced reefers can help here.

 

[sgrosenb]

@proxy001 very interesting... can you share a few thread links here so I can check it out? I like my anemone and all but i'd ditch it in a second if that fixed things LOL

 

[proxy001]

@proxy001 very interesting... can you share a few thread links here so I can check it out? I like my anemone and all but i'd ditch it in a second if that fixed things LOL

Enough light?

Ok I know a par meter would probably be the best way to determine this, but I figured I could probably get some advice on my setup. Tank is a 65 gallon 36x24x18. Currently lit by a single de Hamilton 250w MH. Two bluacro half stars and a two t5 . I keep several bta, they grow like mad and...

www.reef2reef.com

Close enough.

How are you doing other than SPS? Softies ? LPS?

 

[sgrosenb]

I have a war coral, a meteor shower, and a few hammers and they are doing really well. No complaints, but not really seeing growth (but I don't even know how those things grow). I also have a small 1" red flower anemone as well - very healthy as far as I can tell.

 

[proxy001]

I have a war coral, a meteor shower, and a few hammers and they are doing really well. No complaints, but not really seeing growth (but I don't even know how those things grow). I also have a small 1" red flower anemone as well - very healthy as far as I can tell.

I think softies and LPS need less than stellar water. My phosphate today is 0.04, my softies look terrible

 

[HuduVudu]

I'm thinking this is a really, really good sign???

Yes indeed.

One last question on the kalkwasser - I've done a bunch of research and it seems like a great way to dose. Curious on plumbing though - I have my RODI water going straight to my tank with a pressure solenoid and float switch that regulates top-off water. I do not have an ATO reservoir. Any suggestions on how to plumb a kalkwasser reactor with that setup? I have plenty of dosing heads available on my GHL doser... but I don't want to add a reservoir that holds RODI water.

Tee off the RO reservoir before your seloniod and float switch. Route the new line to the input of one of your dosing heads then on the output line go to the Kalk reactor to push through it. The output of the reactor goes into the tank. I highly recommend using a reactor it makes this process dead simple. I use a Reef Octo FWIW and I like it so far. I am not sure how much evap you see but maybe start by pushing a liter a day. Watch your alk and see how that works. You can only get so much kalk in because of your evap. If you have high demand corals (and you do) you are going to see the alk drop pretty heavy. You may end up setting up your Calcium Reactor sooner than you think.

Don't forget that a portion of your alk numbers are an illusion and the corals can't use that. Don't go crazy on the alk numbers you are seeing I have grown coral long term in 4.5 dKH. Corals don't like big movements and some faster growing corals won't like the alk that low. Things are going to start moving pretty fast for you. Be ready for a bumpy ride. Try not to jerk things around based on your numbers. Try to move things as gradually as you can. Remember the corals have been in the alk that you have now for a while and the only difference is that you are removing the illusory alk.

 

[HuduVudu]

@sgrosenb there are a few threads like yours. You are pushing it to the extreme, you are doing everything perfectly yet, no growth. I am in a very similar situation as yours. The theory on the other thread is that anemones create a chemical warfare with certain corals, namely SPS.
Im sure the experienced reefers can help here.

I love the game of telephone.

Large predatory anemones will fight with each if the are not from a similar genetic pool. How we got to anemones fighting chemically with corals etc. is pretty hilarious. Anemones will sit on and shade to death corals (why you always put big anemones in first), but that is about the extent of their damage. People struggle so hard with SPS I guess they will grasp at anything that seems plausible.

Not trying to put you down personally @proxy001 that is not my intent. I am trying to dispell poor information.

I also have a small 1" red flower anemone as well

@sgrosenb these anemones do not fight chemically at all even amongst themselves FWIW.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One of the problems with trying to associate problems with having anemones is that so many folks have anemones that almost any problem will have some folks who also have anemones.

 

[proxy001]

I love the game of telephone.

Large predatory anemones will fight with each if the are not from a similar genetic pool. How we got to anemones fighting chemically with corals etc. is pretty hilarious. Anemones will sit on and shade to death corals (why you always put big anemones in first), but that is about the extent of their damage. People struggle so hard with SPS I guess they will grasp at anything that seems plausible.

Not trying to put you down personally @proxy001 that is not my intent. I am trying to dispell poor information.


@sgrosenb these anemones do not fight chemically at all even amongst themselves FWIW.

Thank you for that. You said it perfectly, very hard to get hard science info. So we try to find reasons that seem plausible.

 

[HuduVudu]

Thank you for that. You said it perfectly, very hard to get hard science info. So we try to find reasons that seem plausible.

Looking for answers is how we move forward.
I am a tinkerer I have theories ... most are wrong, but I keep looking for answers. We as a community must never stop doing that because you never know, the unorthodox may become the new orthodox.

Thank you for your kind reply, I truly appreciate it.

 

[sgrosenb]

Hi folks,

I got my ATI test back today and it shows pretty solid levels. Interesting - I did a Triton, an ICP-Analysis.com and and ATI ICP test all on the same day. The three show some variations in levels that I'm surprised are all so different. But overall, I think everything looks good. Iodine is clearly low on all three, so I can work on that. Otherwise things look good - please feel free to let me know if you think otherwise! Links to each test are here:

Triton
ATI
ICP-Analysis.com - see picture a few posts above in this thread

Also - I know nothing in reefing happens quickly, but I figured I'd send along another pH / Alk update. I've now opened my windows for 2 days straight and it's quite apparent that it is impacting pH. Alkalinity also decline slightly, although I'm really really hoping it continues to decline... I don't have any good scientific basis for it, but it feels like if I see alkalinity decline, the rest will all start clicking.

I'll keep everyone updated as I continue to air out the house in hope of better gas exchange. My CO2 scrubber arrived but I'm not going to set it up just yet. I'm going to wait and see how this progresses. I think my next play will be to get a kalk reactor and start dosing that if I see alkalinity continue to drop below 8.0 dKH. Fingers crossed...

Alkalinity:

pH:

 

[Scorpius]

You should see my contraption co2 scrubber. Fresh air from outside to a humidity chamber then to the co2 media then to my skimmer. Its crazy what we do for our fish tanks.

 

[jccaclimber]

Three pages into a thread that started with proof of easily tested water parameters and unless I missed it not a single mention of food? There’s more to feeding coral than having free nitrate and phosphate in the water! Give us some details please.

Whenever I need to chase down a tank that isn’t growing I always end up finding something way off in the end, conflated with a bunch of things I tried to blame along the way because they weren’t quite perfect.

Your lighting looks reasonable.
Your flow looks reasonable.
Your measured water parameters look reasonable.
Your pH, while not optimal, is not low enough to explain your issue.
The things I’ve had stump me in the past, that felt like a magic bullet where I could watch the sticks grow day over day after correcting are:
Letting nitrate stay at zero.
Letting phosphate stay at zero.
Discovering my potassium was at 330.
Not really feeding, while also not being established enough for the tank to make its own food.

I’ve dealt with absurdly high CO2 (2 people in a 300 ft^2 apartment), poor flow, sub optimal lighting, things still grow.

I also don’t buy the ionic imbalance from 2 part issue so long as thing read generally correct. One of my tanks (600 gallons, lightly stocked on fish) went well over a year on a sheet of nori and cube of mysis per day, epsom salt for Mg, CaCl and soda ash for 2 part (something like 2 dKH/day) 0.5 PPM nitrate from KNO3 to hold 5-10 PPM, and some extra potassium to keep it around 400 PPM. I ended up finding a rusty hose clamp in the sump when I tore down to move.

There was a happy derasa the size of a basketball, SPS that I could watch grow day by day, and happy softies. I did have an algae issue, likely due to in part to high phosphate, so I know something was leaching from the rocks. Still, not really complicated all said and done and the acros grew like weeds.

There is also something to be said about small frags being slow. Corals don’t grow linearly at first. All those shapes that acros make are designed in part to alter the local flow conditions and increase food capture. Until they look like mini colonies they don’t have that advantage going for them yet. The thing that bothers me is that you should still have some coralline growth, or something driving all consumption. CO2 might be part of your puzzle, but I really don’t think it’s all of it.

I’m also noting that with data from a Trident, a KH Director, and two ICP tests you’re clearly gadget driven. I am as well, I had to spend a year seeing my tank one to two weekends a month, but I think there’s something more basic to be solved than a new gadget or dosing method.


Borderline stagnant flow, but even that worked ok.
While 2 part can throw salinity

 

[sgrosenb]

Three pages into a thread that started with proof of easily tested water parameters and unless I missed it not a single mention of food? There’s more to feeding coral than having free nitrate and phosphate in the water! Give us some details please.

Whenever I need to chase down a tank that isn’t growing I always end up finding something way off in the end, conflated with a bunch of things I tried to blame along the way because they weren’t quite perfect.

Your lighting looks reasonable.
Your flow looks reasonable.
Your measured water parameters look reasonable.
Your pH, while not optimal, is not low enough to explain your issue.
The things I’ve had stump me in the past, that felt like a magic bullet where I could watch the sticks grow day over day after correcting are:
Letting nitrate stay at zero.
Letting phosphate stay at zero.
Discovering my potassium was at 330.
Not really feeding, while also not being established enough for the tank to make its own food.

I’ve dealt with absurdly high CO2 (2 people in a 300 ft^2 apartment), poor flow, sub optimal lighting, things still grow.

I also don’t buy the ionic imbalance from 2 part issue so long as thing read generally correct. One of my tanks (600 gallons, lightly stocked on fish) went well over a year on a sheet of nori and cube of mysis per day, epsom salt for Mg, CaCl and soda ash for 2 part (something like 2 dKH/day) 0.5 PPM nitrate from KNO3 to hold 5-10 PPM, and some extra potassium to keep it around 400 PPM. I ended up finding a rusty hose clamp in the sump when I tore down to move.

There was a happy derasa the size of a basketball, SPS that I could watch grow day by day, and happy softies. I did have an algae issue, likely due to in part to high phosphate, so I know something was leaching from the rocks. Still, not really complicated all said and done and the acros grew like weeds.

There is also something to be said about small frags being slow. Corals don’t grow linearly at first. All those shapes that acros make are designed in part to alter the local flow conditions and increase food capture. Until they look like mini colonies they don’t have that advantage going for them yet. The thing that bothers me is that you should still have some coralline growth, or something driving all consumption. CO2 might be part of your puzzle, but I really don’t think it’s all of it.

I’m also noting that with data from a Trident, a KH Director, and two ICP tests you’re clearly gadget driven. I am as well, I had to spend a year seeing my tank one to two weekends a month, but I think there’s something more basic to be solved than a new gadget or dosing method.

Thanks @jccaclimber for the note. Sounds like you've experienced a lot of different tank woes in the hobby! In terms of coral food, I feed ReefRoids a few times a week. I try not to overdo it, as it seems to increase phosphates when I add too much. In terms of fish food, I feed PE pellets to the ~15 fish I have 2-3 times per day, and then I feed frozen PE Mysis shrimp once per day, usually 2 cubes. It would seem to me that my food schedule is in line with many others who hold SPS successfully, but I'm open to suggestions on how to improve!

 

[sgrosenb]

I’m also noting that with data from a Trident, a KH Director, and two ICP tests you’re clearly gadget driven. I am as well, I had to spend a year seeing my tank one to two weekends a month, but I think there’s something more basic to be solved than a new gadget or dosing method.

I'm with you here. While I believe the kalk reactor would be a good choice, I don't think it's a solution to problems. I, too, believe there is something more basic. Unfortunately @HuduVudu and @Randy Holmes-Farley I had a little gut punch this morning... I just tested again and my alkalinity increased by 0.11 dKH. Also, calcium increased over the past few days by roughly 10 ppm. I did not dose anything these past few days - the only thing I did was feed my fish, add ReefRoids once, and obviously RODI top-off water was added (see my ATI RODI water test here - no issues on that front). I do understand that Neptune Trident testing is not perfect, but I haven't seen anything to say that they shouldn't be trusted.

One other odd item to note is that magnesium appeared to have a meaningful decline from ~1290 down to ~1266 during that time. I am of the understanding that Magnesium should decline more slowly than calcium and alkalinity. So I'm kicking it back to the chemists out there - any clues when you see these three elements acting this way? It just strikes me that this is the culprit, and if I can figure out how to get some steady consumption on alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium I'll be in good shape.

Alkalinity:

Calcium:

Magnesium

 

[jccaclimber]

More when I get time later today, but to be clear, mineral consumption is the effect, not the cause. You don't get steady consumption to drive growth, you fix whatever is holding growth, and that drives consumption.
I don't see a full tank shot (we won't judge) anywhere. Can you post one, preferably one that doesn't look like a blue rectangle (personal pet peeve)? I'm not looking for anything in particular, but sometimes I find something.

One other note, if you want to make a sizeable dent on indoor CO2 with house plants, you basically need to turn your house into a jungle, so increasing ventilation, or CO2 scrubbing on a skimmer (fresh air line didn't work well for me) are more practical options. House plants are great, just don't depend on them for this.

 

[sgrosenb]

More when I get time later today, but to be clear, mineral consumption is the effect, not the cause. You don't get steady consumption to drive growth, you fix whatever is holding growth, and that drives consumption.
I don't see a full tank shot (we won't judge) anywhere. Can you post one, preferably one that doesn't look like a blue rectangle (personal pet peeve)? I'm not looking for anything in particular, but sometimes I find something.

One other note, if you want to make a sizeable dent on indoor CO2 with house plants, you basically need to turn your house into a jungle, so increasing ventilation, or CO2 scrubbing on a skimmer (fresh air line didn't work well for me) are more practical options. House plants are great, just don't depend on them for this.

Understood - thanks @jccaclimber . Would absolutely LOVE to find out what is holding back growth.

On another note - something really weird is happening. I don't want to hijack this thread from myself, but it's tough to ignore. One has been happening the last few days, and one specifically has happened in the last few hours. Over the past few days, I seem to be having a mass crab die-off (pictures below) . They have been happy and healthy for months and I've never seen one die - they came in with the live rock I got in May 2020. And all of the sudden I'm seeing like 2 or 3 new dead ones show up each day.

ALSO - EVEN WEIRDER - I just saw - for the first time - a few fuzzy worms (bristle worm maybe ??? - See picture below) EATING a few corals today. Pics below. I've seen these guys roam around the tank for months - they came in with my live rock as well. They never bothered anything except to get tangled up in the bubble tip anemone every once in a while. But I've never seen them do anything to the corals. Today it seems like 2 or 3 of them just went right at the corals. I have no idea if this is coincidence or has something to do with me opening my windows (doesn't seem related?) but like I said it's tough to ignore.

Would these items add anything to the mystery of what's up with my tank?

Picture of dead crabs:

Picture of the fuzzy worm - bristleworm maybe? There are a bunch of these in my tank.

Pictures of corals dying from the fuzzy worms crawling on them and literally eating their polyps:

Both these coral were as healthy as could be a few hours ago. I had to pull one of the fuzzy worms off of each of them:

You can see on this birdsnest the white spot towards the bastewhere the worm just walked along and ate the polys: