SPS Healthy & Colorful but Not Growing, Zoas Partially Closed - Ca, Mg, Alk Barely Decline. Why?

[EMeyer]

Please provide all of the elements that are tested as a part of alkalinity when an aquarist does an alkalinity test.

A basic understanding of chemistry is essential in growing stony corals in a salt water aquarium.

I'm afraid I don't have the time to re-write all the details in long form, but its available in many places online. I really don't think I can do better than point you to Randy's article on the subject.

Alkalinity is a measurement of the buffering capacity of seawater. Nothing less, nothing more. There is no 'fake' alkalinity or 'real' alkalinity any more than there is 'fake' pH or 'fake' acid.

Assuming the OP is measuring buffering capacity of seawater with a standard acid titration, the OP is measuring real alkalinity.

 

[HuduVudu]

I'm afraid I don't have the time to re-write all the details in long form, but its available in many places online. I really don't think I can do better than point you to Randy's article on the subject.

Alkalinity is a measurement of the buffering capacity of seawater. Nothing less, nothing more. There is no 'fake' alkalinity or 'real' alkalinity any more than there is 'fake' pH or 'fake' acid.

Assuming the OP is measuring buffering capacity of seawater with a standard acid titration, the OP is measuring real alkalinity.

Maybe you should re-read Randy's article it seems you skipped a lot of information, also his several complaints about current Alk testing.

It seems that you should be able easily provide all of the elements tested because your knowledge of Randy's article. It therefore should also be easy for you to list them so that we may talk about them.

Alkalinity is about buffering acid in any aqueous solution and there is nothing more or less about it. There are many many buffering substances that fall under the umbrella of Alkalinity I am asking you to name only the ones that are tested for using salt water alkalinity tests.

You have simplified something that you don't truly understand. I am suggesting that you check your premise. Hint: read the entire thread the answers lie there.

 

[HuduVudu]

@HuduVudu ok - but I guess I'm not sure what you mean by a "steady dosing". It seems like I need an alk number to shoot for or it might just get out of control. Any deeper guidance here would be really helpful. Thanks, as always.

LOL ... you are definitely a numbers guy

The directions on the bottles should give you an approximate amount to dose. Shoot for the low side of those numbers. You need to dose those amounts consistently every day until you get your Kalk reactor set up. Do not deviate from the dosage. I know that this seems unusual but for right now it is what needs to happen until you can get things in a place where the numbers actually make sense and are usable.

Your PH may continue to climb and your Alk may continue to drop. Don't let these changing numbers scare you. Continue to use the scrubber (don't forget to open the windows occasionally ) and when you get the Kalk reactor running for a fair amount of time then you can look at the numbers and make some decisions.

Patience.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The comment about "fake alk" needs some comment.

Corals probably take up bicarbonate itself, not carbonate, so to be concerned that higher bicarbonate at lower pH is causing problems seems unusual, to say the least. Bicarbonate is not fake alk. it is the main contributor to alk at any pH a reef aquarium attains. In any case, the response of corals to carbonate vs bicarbonate is a very advanced biochemistry discussion and is extremely hard to evaluate experimentally. It is not a simple explanation of anyone's reef problems.

Low pH in a reef aquarium can be a concern for a variety of reasons, but folks should use alkalinity as their guide to the availability of bicarbonate and carbonate. None of the other components (borate, phosphate, silicate, hydroxide, and a few even more minor contributors) are all so small in concentration that they are not significant to reefers unless borate is greatly overdosed.

Looking back over posts, I think a lot of angst is being spent on issue that may just be testing error.

For example:

" I just tested again and my alkalinity increased by 0.11 dKH. Also, calcium increased over the past few days by roughly 10 ppm. "

Both of those are within the expected test error of kits and is really not worth agonizing over unless and until they continue trending the same direction.

 

[sgrosenb]

ALL - PLEASE HELP. My tank is looking very cloudy and all my snails are at the top of the water. They seem to be expressing some type of slime... I can't tell exactly. I unplugged my CO2 scrubber as that is the only major difference I have enacated over the past 12 hours. Any other suggestions on what I should do? @HuduVudu @Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[jccaclimber]

BREATHE!

 

[sgrosenb]

Man I'm trying @jccaclimber ... never seen my tank like this. Super cloudy, snails are doing things I've never seen - all attached to each other and emitting some sort of gas/slime constantly. Fish seem a bit sporadic but not in imminent danger. LPS don't look very good. SPS seem fine right now... Obviously has to do with the CO2 scrubber but not sure what my next stepshould be.

 

[jccaclimber]

This is odd. I would have called BS on the prediction of some sort of impending crash, except that here we are.
Unplugging the CO2 scrubber seems like a good first start. Is the skimmer by chance running very wet?
What chemicals were nearby? The only time I saw this involved someone not sufficiently sealing their tank when their house was painted, although I've heard of it with air fresheners.
Maybe pesticides? I managed to kill a few fish in a freshwater tank some years ago after using Roundup in the yard. Thought I had fully washed it off myself, but had nothing else to blame.

1) You already pulled the scrubber.
2) Curiosity, what is your pH? Doesn't sound like a precipitation event, but info would be good.
3) All else fails, water change and aeration is always a good plan.
4) Skimmer doing anything funny?
5) Stop feeding for 24 hours.

 

[sgrosenb]

This is odd. I would have called crap on the prediction of some sort of impending crash, except that here we are.
Unplugging the CO2 scrubber seems like a good first start. Is the skimmer by chance running very wet?
What chemicals were nearby? The only time I saw this involved someone not sufficiently sealing their tank when their house was painted, although I've heard of it with air fresheners.
Maybe pesticides? I managed to kill a few fish in a freshwater tank some years ago after using Roundup in the yard. Thought I had fully washed it off myself, but had nothing else to blame.

1) You already pulled the scrubber.
2) Curiosity, what is your pH? Doesn't sound like a precipitation event, but info would be good.
3) All else fails, water change and aeration is always a good plan.
4) Skimmer doing anything funny?
5) Stop feeding for 24 hours.

1) yep pulled scrubber
2) pH is at 8.58 right now. topped off at 8.61 an hour ago. Quite an increase from the 8.1 this morning
3) I have water ready - I'm about to do a WC
4) no - pretty normal. semi-wet skim but pretty standard
5) ok

 

[jccaclimber]

Sent you a PM with a question.
That's some impressive pH rise. I didn't get nearly that much, now I do actually wonder if you managed to start some precipitation.
1) Thin white dusty film on the glass?
2) While I still see a water change as a neutral to positive action, don't go overboard with it.
3) Might not be a bad idea to do an ammonia test, but know that at least the API test tends to read false positive, so unless we see something really out of line (unlikely given your description) we are NOT going to do anything as a result of the test.
4) Good that the skimmer isn't going nuts. This is at least one piece of evidence that the world is not ending.
5) Might be interesting to see if it goes away on its own in the next hour or two as the pH goes back down. If it were me I'd do that just to answer the question, while sitting by my tank to intervene if things got worse. However, it isn't my and I fully understand if you don't want to do this as it comes with a risk.

 

[jccaclimber]

Just in case it happens, your ORP probably went down a bit as your pH rose through the day. This is expected as the two are linked, so don't be surprised when you see it so long as it didn't dive 100 points or something like that.

 

[sgrosenb]

Thanks @jccaclimber . Skimmer is still pretty normal - what should I be on the lookout for with the skimmer? It seems the oddest thing is that my trochius snails are emitting a type of almost smoke or white liquid - that might be contributing the most out of anything to the cloudiness but not sure. Either way, the tank is extremely cloudy. Any other thoughts?

 

[sgrosenb]

Just in case it happens, your ORP probably went down a bit as your pH rose through the day. This is expected as the two are linked, so don't be surprised when you see it so long as it didn't dive 100 points or something like that.

ORP went form about 465 to 425 today

 

[jccaclimber]

ORP went form about 465 to 425 today

Ok, nothing odd there. Overall higher than I'm used to seeing, but I really don't like to read much into ORP values unless they make sudden changes.

 

[sgrosenb]

Fish are acting pretty weird. most hiding in rocks, etc. But then again it's usually about time that my lights turn off so not sure what they usually do at this time. Other than cloudy water, I'm not seeing anything devastating, but I'm not feeling too good about the tank come tomorrow morning. Definitely the oddest thing, by far, is the smoke/gas/sperm/whatever that all the snails are emitting. Never seen it before.

 

[jccaclimber]

Thanks @jccaclimber . Skimmer is still pretty normal - what should I be on the lookout for with the skimmer? It seems the oddest thing is that my trochius snails are emitting a type of almost smoke or white liquid - that might be contributing the most out of anything to the cloudiness but not sure. Either way, the tank is extremely cloudy. Any other thoughts?

If the skimmer suddenly went nuts, ie overflowing clear skimmate, that would imply a sudden large organic load to the system.
Seems unlikely, but this is the only thing I can think of with snails letting out a white liquid:

Larger creatures spawning would make a mess of a tank, but I wouldn't expect a trochus to be big enough to cause that level of clouding. Not like we're talking a huge colony of nems.

 

[sgrosenb]

That is exactly what the snails are doing. it's just really weird - never seen them do it before and they're ALL doing it constantly. Not sure if it's why the water is cloudy, but that is definitely what the snails are doing

 

[jccaclimber]

If you have some fresh salt water on hand, maybe throw them in a bucket of it and observe for an hour or two?
I don't know of any issues with suddenly changing pH on snails, but I don't acclimate my new snails when I get them either. If one is spawning it might make sense for the others to be doing so as a group. I've seen stories of nems and clams doing that, but this is well outside my experience (snail reproduction that is).

 

[HuduVudu]

obviously has to do with the CO2 scrubber

Yes, you tank is starting to breathe. I wasn't kidding things would change. I know that this scared you but I highly suggest that you put the scrubber back on.

2) pH is at 8.58 right now. topped off at 8.61 an hour ago. Quite an increase from the 8.1 this morning

I have been thinking about this. I know that you calibrated the probe recently, but I do think that the PH probe is off. I had this same problem very recently with my Apex PH probe, I couldn't get cal and had to throw it out. I am beginning to not trust Apex probes. You said you have a KH director. I am pretty sure that it has a PH probe. See if you can get a comparison to that probe. It sucks that there isn't really a good PH solution test. Unless Hanna makes one. It's nice to get a solid verification of PH since we rely so heavily on it.

The key here is to not panic. Things are going to change that is expected. Also, your corals are in a dangerous place and I am trying to help you navigate a path to safety. That the corals haven't been growing for a while is a dangerous thing. Relax and ponder all that is happening. Do research and try to understand. Making panic decisions doesn't help and of course makes things worse.

 

[sgrosenb]

Yes, you tank is starting to breathe. I wasn't kidding things would change. I know that this scared you but I highly suggest that you put the scrubber back on.


I have been thinking about this. I know that you calibrated the probe recently, but I do think that the PH probe is off. I had this same problem very recently with my Apex PH probe, I couldn't get cal and had to throw it out. I am beginning to not trust Apex probes. You said you have a KH director. I am pretty sure that it has a PH probe. See if you can get a comparison to that probe. It sucks that there isn't really a good PH solution test. Unless Hanna makes one. It's nice to get a solid verification of PH since we rely so heavily on it.

The key here is to not panic. Things are going to change that is expected. Also, your corals are in a dangerous place and I am trying to help you navigate a path to safety. That the corals haven't been growing for a while is a dangerous thing. Relax and ponder all that is happening. Do research and try to understand. Making panic decisions doesn't help and of course makes things worse.

Thanks @HuduVudu - I gotta admit it is difficult to plug the scrubber back in after experiencing this. Do you have any more insight or more scientific-driven explanation of the cloudy water and snail spawning? Those are perplexing and worrying me the most. I'm not looking to whipsaw my levels I'm all for sticking with a plan, but I fear that mabye the oxygen levels are low (a risk you mentioned with CO2 scrubbers?) or something else detrimental is going on.