SPS Healthy & Colorful but Not Growing, Zoas Partially Closed - Ca, Mg, Alk Barely Decline. Why?
- Thread starter sgrosenb
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jccaclimber
Active Member
I might call it less clean, or richer in nutrients, but I wouldn't call it less than stellar. If it's what they need who am I to tell the coral it isn't stellar? I've tried, but my corals don't seem to listen very well.
On the familiar subject of "I did a bunch of testing and found something way off" I discovered my phosphate pushing zero (on a Hanna 736). I started feeding some small particle foods (reef roids and similar, whatever I have in the closet). When I put in a tiny amount, 0.3 mL into 170 gallons, the LPS look great for 18 hours or so, at which point if I don't add more they suddenly shrink up. Still near zero phosphate. I only mention this because there are other ways the corals can capture nutrients which may not show up on a phosphate test. In my case it's resulted in some algae issues that knowing me will probably get out of control, which helps hold the phosphate down as well. I'll take algae and happy coral over neither though, give it a year of happy coral and there won't be any exposed rock to grow algae anyways.
jccaclimber
Active Member
Yeah, I'm really good at making mistakes, and then stubbornly continuing to make them until I've proven to myself what the problem is. Sometimes people call me crazy for refusing to use a workable solution (say, changing water), because I want to know exactly why something is off, not just a blanket solution to fix it. (Note, changing water covers a lot of sins, and I recommend it even if I've run some systems without it). I'm decades from being an expert, but I've fixed enough problems to recognize repeats on occasion. Sometimes reef issues remind me of engineering issues. Any time I hear "We've fixed that three times and it still isn't working right!" I tend to reply with "If it's broken again then you didn't fix it right, and if you fixed it even though it wasn't broken and the problem didn't go away then you can't fix it there because that isn't the problem."
The food sounds in line, but only because of the stocking levels. When fully packed with coral (mainly SPS/LPS mix, some zoas) I've found that a 29 gallon biocube with a tiny amount of chaeto can fully consume 2 cubes of mysis per day. Now, that was one of the densest tanks I've ever seen in terms of coral growth, but still, two full cubes a day and still pushing zero nitrates. Things were growing that fast. On the flip side, I've seen those same 2 cubes be too much for a 170 gallon reef simply because it was mostly bare rock and few fish.
Now that I've seen the rest of your tank, it honestly doesn't look bad. It looks like your macro may be a little thick, but not by a lot. I mention this because I've seen cases where it grows faster when pruned just a bit more aggressively. I mention that because if you want to feed a bit more you'll need equivalent export, and it already looks like you're skimming slightly wet (I do too, nothing wrong there).
If you look at the second dead crab picture (btw, I agree, very odd, I don't know why unless air fresheners etc. were used), the coral is clearly growing. The edge has a nice rounded shape, a bunch of little polyps starting to form, etc. A lot of the other pictures are showing reasonable growth given how small they are (although the low alk consumption still puzzles me).
So, what to do, or at least what I would do if I was in your case (in addition to keeping indoor CO2 down which you're already working on):
1. If the LPS is happy don't change food. When I say happy I don't mean doing ok, I mean fully inflated, puffy, thrilled to be alive etc. Think of the smile on a 2009/2010 Mazda if you need an example. If you find (like I did in my tank today) that it is happy during parts of the day and unhappy in others (neon green polyp toadstools and candy cane are great for this IME) then you're running short on food at times. When my tank has done the best the LPS have had that nice inflated puffy appearance 24/7. Examples of not as happy would be chalices where you start to see skeleton points under the tissue, toadstools have partial polyp extension, brains, euphyllia, etc. shrink. If you see this, count backwards an hour and throw in a dash of food so that doesn't happen. On that note, when you feed Reef Roids, how much do you feed? If you're doing a larger amount (say 1/4 tsp) you might try half as much but twice as often. Probably only a minor difference, but it sounds like you're in front of the tank regularly.
2. Don't worry too much. Those things are growing, and might just need a bit more time to come in to their own. My tank recently wet from slowly dying to growing (moving too many times in a year and not taking care of it will do that). As a result I've been watching the SPS start retaking the algae that grew as it was STNing. On frags the size of yours (that have been stagnant for a long time) I'm currently seeing edge growth in the range of 1 to 2 mm per week. That would be abysmal for tip growth in a large colony, but for a tiny frag just starting to move it doesn't feel slow. Watch yours and see how the compare. If you have visible growth then everything else will come together at some point.
3. Get your potassium up above 400 PPM at a 10 PPM/day or less raise rate. Also minor, but it's helped me in the past. On the theme of not dosing anything you don't test I would get a K test kit if you don't already have one. I've used Salifert and Red Sea. The Salifert test had lower resolution and was a bit touchy, but it was fast and easy to use. Then one day it just started reading wrong. The Red Sea kit that replaced it has better discrimination (and maybe accuracy, I haven't compared), and it seems more robust, but it does take a LOT longer to test (20 ish minutes, most of which is waiting). I use K2SO4 from Greenleaf Aquariums, but there are plenty of sources.
4. I wouldn't bother with iodine, but if you want to potassium iodide (not a substantial source of potassium at the minuscule doses you would use) is $20 for a lifetime supply on Amazon, and the Red Sea trace test that does K also has a test for I. I've dosed I and not dosed I and never really noticed a difference.
5. I should have read the numbers more closely in your OP. While it's also grasping at straws I'd push the Mg. up a bit, although I should point out that I'm probably in the minority here. I've had some really strange LPS skeleton issues in a couple systems with Mg that ended up in the 1200's, that went away as soon as the system was put above 1400. I can't say this is the issue because it doesn't seem to be a common one, but I've seen it a couple times and didn't change anything else to cause the issue to vanish.
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
@sgrosenb of course you Alk is going to go back up unless you keep opening the window. This is a long term thing you can't just stop airing your house and think that things won't go back. You and your family are breathing everyday.
Yup it went back to the level before you opened the window. I can't emphasize enough you need to work on keeping your house's air quality optimal.
Also where are you on the CO2 scrubber? Have you gotten the Kalkwasser going?
These are important things.
BTW this isn't a birds nest it is stylo. These are very big consumers when they start growing. I have a purple morph and it is a weed. I am using it to push my system to see what kind of load it can handle.You can see on this birdsnest the white spot towards the bastewhere the worm just walked along and ate the polys:
Also to note inverts rely heavily on Alk to properly function. You are headed for a very serious crash and you need to pick a path and move down it. I can tell by your tank picks you are throwing the kitchen sink at all of this and you are going to find that only certain things work together. This hobby is utterly unforgiving with an incredibly expensive learning curve.
It is best to work with one person that has had success and follow their system and advice until you understand how it works. Once you understand the fundamentals that all systems posses and you are successfully employing them in your own aquarium, then and only then can you venture out to try other things to see how they work.
Patience is the key.
sgrosenb
Active Member
Thank you all so much for the info and support.
In terms of the CO2 scrubber - I will set that up today. I had wanted to see what just opening the windows would do first, but it sounds like you think the scrubber should be used as well. I'm on it!
PS - I believe the worms that I have are fireworms. Not ideal but I can deal with those as I move forward - they're not at the top of my concern list...
Updated Alkalinity chart:
@HuduVudu when you say I'm headed towards a crash, can you help me understand why that is? Do you mean because my alkalinity will continue to decline and I need to keep it up one way or another? I have ordered a kalk reactor and everything that goes with it, but it won't be here until next week sometime. In the meantime, I do have some 2-part from Reef Pro that I can use to keep alkalinity up if needed. Do you think that will be OK as I transition? It's tough because I don't see a pull on alk in my numbers, so I don't have the opportunity to dose the kalk anyway. That's the circle I seem to be stuck in.
In terms of the CO2 scrubber - I will set that up today. I had wanted to see what just opening the windows would do first, but it sounds like you think the scrubber should be used as well. I'm on it!
Understood - I've been religious about keeping it open for as long as I can each morning and night without fail. In a perfect world I would keep it open all the time but unfortunately I can't do that in the FL heat.
Oops! Haha of course. I do have a birdsnest in there too which isn't growing. My bad on that.
While I fully understand this, it is so incredibly difficult to have
PS - I believe the worms that I have are fireworms. Not ideal but I can deal with those as I move forward - they're not at the top of my concern list...
Updated Alkalinity chart:
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
No. I would dose Kalk manually. One way to do this is to use the little red spoons that you get in salifert tests to measure out 2 level scoops and add this to a liter of RO. I doesn't have to be perfect because the dosage is so small it won't cause precipitate. Just dump the full liter into your tank in an area where there is lots of flow. I would choose right where the overflows from the tank come into your sump. You can start this right now as you wait for your equipment to come in.
I can see that in your Alk moves ... this is good. Like I said I am from Houston so 100% I understand.
Notice how the crests and dips of your Alk are moving lower.
They shouldn't be. If they start to get out of control then pull them manually otherwise not to worry. My Nassarius keeps their population down and I just pull the big ones if they get to pernicious. Just know like many things in aquariums they are scavengers and very very very very rarely, if ever go after anything that is healthy.
jccaclimber
Active Member
A 2 liter bottle with a tone hole drilled in the end makes a short term kalk drip, you just have to unclog the tip regularly.
Putting it in an ATO or dosing pump works too, I just wouldn’t do it long term without periodic dosing pump maintenance.
Putting it in an ATO or dosing pump works too, I just wouldn’t do it long term without periodic dosing pump maintenance.
sgrosenb
Active Member
THanks @HuduVudu and @jccaclimber I set up my CO2 scrubber a bit ago and I can clearly see my pH cranking up. At what level should I be concerned about going above for my pH? It is reading 8.41 right now and increasing somewhat quickly.
jccaclimber
Active Member
First when did you last calibrate your probes?
sgrosenb
Active Member
Welp - unquestionably, alk continues to decline. pH is getting up there to 8.58 but I'm just going to let it keep going. if it goes much above 8.60 I might unplug the CO2 scrubber, but until then I'm gonna let it rip. Unfortunately I don't have any kalkwasser so I can't dose that right now, even if it's manually. I'll have to get alk in there with the Reef Pro A/B until next Tuesday when the kalk gets here. @HuduVudu you see any major issues with that? I'm going to target 8.0 dKH
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
Should be fine. Make sure that you dose BOTH A and B! Follow the instructions on the bottles explicitly.
Don't forget what you are seeing is the removal of the "fake" Alk (bicarbonate). Your tank has been like this the entire time. Your "real" Alk (carbonate) numbers are probably very low and this will be reflected when you use the scrubber. Keep using the scrubber because you need to know where you are really at when it comes to Alk. I am going to guess that you are near 4-5 dKH. Just think of the scrubber as removing the crap from the Alk. Don't freak out when you see the number get lower and lower. Again remember it has been this way all along so nothing is really changing. This goes for PH too, don't get crazy on the number let it ride.
If I were you I would also start to get your Calcium Reactor ready for use. Start setting it up and getting consumables and such. I won't be long before the Kalk will get overwhelmed. I can't emphasize enough to not yank your Alk around. You do not want big moves in the Alk this most assuredly will crash your tank.
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This discussion about 'fake' alkalinity doesnt seem to have any basis in actual chemistry. I'd suggest re-reading some of the fundamentals. If you're testing alkalinity properly, you're testing real alkalinity, and should take the numbers at face value.
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
Please provide all of the elements that are tested as a part of alkalinity when an aquarist does an alkalinity test.
A basic understanding of chemistry is essential in growing stony corals in a salt water aquarium.
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
I wouldn't target anything right now. Things are going to be changing fast. Just start a steady dosing of two part. Start small and keep it steady until you get the Kalk. I am really warning you if you try to move things too fast that will be worse than having things too low.
As stated, I think about half of your number is "fake".
Another thing to consider...
I don't see a lot of fish, and a couple of coral pics showed little PE, so despite efforts for perfect chemistry, I think you should also consider nutrients, and remember the corals cannot grow unless both photosynthesis and food source are available. Most thriving sps tanks usually have many fish, so plenty of fish poop, which becomes a food source. Of course you can supplement with aminos and other coral foods, but a heavy fish population well fed is good to fatten fish and promote health, as well as supplying a constant food source. Heavy export would be advisable as to not elevate nutrients too high. Just something to keep in mind.
Cheers
I don't see a lot of fish, and a couple of coral pics showed little PE, so despite efforts for perfect chemistry, I think you should also consider nutrients, and remember the corals cannot grow unless both photosynthesis and food source are available. Most thriving sps tanks usually have many fish, so plenty of fish poop, which becomes a food source. Of course you can supplement with aminos and other coral foods, but a heavy fish population well fed is good to fatten fish and promote health, as well as supplying a constant food source. Heavy export would be advisable as to not elevate nutrients too high. Just something to keep in mind.
Cheers
sgrosenb
Active Member
Thanks @Perry - I think the close-up pictures of the coral are not a good representation as they had just been hit by a fireworm. I am actually pretty pleased overall with my polyp extension - it is the single thing that I love most about SPS, and I have been pleasantly surprised with decent PE... but growth, not so much. That said... I would LOVE to add more fish - I am all ears on what you would recommend. But current fish are 1x Yellow Tang, 1x Coral Beatuy, 2x Clowns, 5x Damsels, 3x anthias, 1x cardlinalfish, 1x helfrichi firefish, 2x flame hawkfish.
I'd love to get another schooling fish with like 3-7 fish but not sure what to add. I'd also love to add some wrasse's, but the yellow tang is a bully and has essentially killed, via bullying, two wrasse's so far...
That's not too bad, I guess they are camera shy, lol. Give it time, sounds like your doing all the right things. Once they lay a good strong base, they will start to take off
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