Sulphur in the reefaquarium

[purp]

I personally do not have a long term experience using BADES rolls without calcium carbonate mixed with the sulfur substrate. I think a lot less Sodium bicarbonate will be needed. Calcium production is considered to be a positive thing and as we grow algae in a refuge if needed we can grow Halimeda to correct calcium.

I do have a sock of aragonite substrate right next to the sulfur sausage,so maybe thats sufficient?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

i dont have any coral in my display tank at the moment, so my Ca demand would be negligible. I actually haven't tested my Ca in the display tank, but I can do that this evening. I will be interested to see how that's going. I'd expect it to be higher than "ambient" ca provided by fresh saltwater.

i just tested it. it's 414 ppm .

Ok, Thank You.

 

[Cory]

Do you have a picture of the sulfur media you used in your sock?

 

[purp]

 

[purp]

Apparently you can't post an amazon link? Not sure what the deal with that is.

But here's a photo

Search for "
Sulfur Prills 704045, 4 lb
" on amazon.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I do have a sock of aragonite substrate right next to the sulfur sausage,so maybe thats sufficient?

In this case, processes have taken place and alkalinity has been used for both nitrification and denitrification. The produced acids are released and diluted. As the aragonite surface will become bio-fouled it may be expected the effect to be minimal. If the nitrifying-denitrifying biofilm grows on aragonite substrate the acids will be in direct contact with the substrate, diluting the aragonite, making it possible to use it as an inorganic carbon source by the active biofilm and prevent alkalinity consumption.
In the early days, we used big biofilters with compartments. In the first compartment sand, in the second shell grit. Nitrification was completed in the sand bed and the second compartment was supposed to buffer the water. It did not work! When we mixed both compartments the water stayed buffered for a very long time.

 

[czynot]

I read every post. And I’m scratching my head.
I run sulfur beads in geo 618 reactor. Sulfure beads fill 3/4 and remaining 1/4 fill with calcium media. I have ORP monitoring the oxygen level in the chamber. ORP at -200.
My nitrate drop from 30-10ppm in a month.
My understand is to increase or decrease influent to control denitrification rate.

Is or does a sulfur denitrator (in low or no oxygen reactor) safe for a reef tank?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I read every post. And I’m scratching my head.
I run sulfur beads in geo 618 reactor. Sulfure beads fill 3/4 and remaining 1/4 fill with calcium media. I have ORP monitoring the oxygen level in the chamber. ORP at -200.
My nitrate drop from 30-10ppm in a month.
My understand is to increase or decrease influent to control denitrification rate.

Is or does a sulfur denitrator (in low or no oxygen reactor) safe for a reef tank?

In most cases, BADES is safe to use as if it goes wrong it meanly is because an anoxic kept reactor is used, the flow was not increased in time or the flow was reduced when the critical point of the reactor is reached which means the reactor is not able to foul the tank due to the limited flow, this if the effluent is aerated before entering the tank, as it should. An anoxic kept "sulphur denitrator" is my opinion not suitable for nitrogen management in a live support system but without any doubt, such denitrator is very good for exporting some nitrate-nitrogen, which is not the same as managing the nitrogen content for which the flow must be adjustable in the function of the nitrate level and the desired daily nitrate removal rate.
For managing and having full control over the nitrogen export rate and the nitrate level one must be able to adjust the flow in the function of the daily nitrogen removal rate needed to remove the daily nitrogen overproduction. Using a reactor which is ORP reading controlled to keep the reactor anoxic, the flow rate is limited which increases the risk for mismanagement if corrections have to be made. Sometimes ORP reading controlled reactors have an "ON"" Off" switch to allow flow or not which turns the reactor into a batch reactor and very sensitive to the HRT ( hydraulic retention time) Will ORP reading detect if nitrate is used up ?.

Using BADES the reactor is NOT kept anoxic, it is NOT needed, which makes it safe to use if managed correctly and it makes all the above possible without using expensive equipment which is only needed to prevent problems which may be caused by using it.
My information, the safe denitrification zone using ORP is between +50 and -50mv . -200mv is the zone allowing sulfate reduction. ref: https://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:het_water:orp

 

[iReefer12]

This an old thread I know, sorry…

@ca1ore I’m interested in getting your advice on this, as thinking of implementing a Sulfur Denitrator just like you, and using a DOS to add Alk to maintain balance.


I’m running a CaRX using a Cole Parmer peri pump. I’m thinking of adding a Sulfur Denitrator and have 2 options, which do you think is most viable?

1. Add the Sulfur Denitrator in station right before the CaRX. (Tank->Sulfur Denitrator->CaRX->CP Pump->Back to Tank.)

2. Add a second head to the Cole Parmer and run the Sulfur Denitrator on its own line.

Current speed on the CaRX line is 60ml/min, if I added a second head I can change peri tube size to speed that up to 80ml/min or slow it down 35 or 15ml/min.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

A 400 l tank has a nitrate level of 40 ppm and a daily nitrate overproduction of 2ppm. Most are persuing 0 nitrate in the effluent of the denitrator, something which I do not advice.
To lower the level only a bit more as 2ppm must be exported daily. A daily flow of 20l daily is enough to stabilize the nitrate level. For lowering the level with 1 ppm daily one has to increase the flow every day. After 10 days one will have a level of 30 ppm and a flow of 40l daily to keep the level steady. One has to increase the flow in function of the nitrate level to be able to lower the level.
The target level is ? Assuming it is 2 ppm and the daily production is still the same. This means the daily flow has to be equal to the total system volume for keeping the level steady. For lowering the level by 1 ppm the flow must be doubled, 2x the total system volume.
The above is a theoretical approach, in practice other difficulties may rise.
Once the level is descending one will not be able to lower the level with 1 ppm daily due to the increasing flow difference needed. One must give time to the reactor to grow in function of the flow and the BOD ( biological oxygen demand) needed.

Managing the nitrate level is about being able to manage the flow rate. To be able to do the above a BADES reactor with at least 4 liter sulfur is needed. Because the flow rate increases more oxygen is entering the reactor, which has to be consumed to be able to keep the same daily nitrate removal rate. The reactor must be able to consume enough oxygen due to bacterial activity (BOD), the reactor must be big enough. ref: MB BADESS CMF De Haes 2007-2017

 

[nelyrag]

Would a deep sand bed serve the same purpose?
I’m working on a 5 gallon aquarium with a very deep sand bed. The goal is to provide a low/no ammonia, low/no nitrate environment for dwarf seahorses. Dwarf seahorses require a LOT of feeding and they produce a lot of waste. They are especially sensitive to nitrate and ammonia and appear drunk and eventually die if the levels stay too high for too long.

I remember my first reef aquarium having a plenum under the sand and it seemed like I had a lot of success with that aquarium but, I was young and it was 17 years ago. I can’t help but think that I had a nitrogen cycle machine. I kept a moorish idol alive for 2 years in that tank. I also remember getting the urge to clean under that plenum and all the yellow stuff that was there was pretty foul.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would a deep sand bed serve the same purpose?
I’m working on a 5 gallon aquarium with a very deep sand bed. The goal is to provide a low/no ammonia, low/no nitrate environment for dwarf seahorses. Dwarf seahorses require a LOT of feeding and they produce a lot of waste. They are especially sensitive to nitrate and ammonia and appear drunk and eventually die if the levels stay too high for too long.

I remember my first reef aquarium having a plenum under the sand and it seemed like I had a lot of success with that aquarium but, I was young and it was 17 years ago. I can’t help but think that I had a nitrogen cycle machine. I kept a moorish idol alive for 2 years in that tank. I also remember getting the urge to clean under that plenum and all the yellow stuff that was there was pretty foul.

Deep sand is a different mechanism than a sulfur denitrator, but it is one of many ways to reduce nitrate in a reef aquarium.

 

[nelyrag]

Deep sand is a different mechanism than a sulfur denitrator, but it is one of many ways to reduce nitrate in a reef aquarium.

What I’m wondering is, did I produce sulphur. Was that yellow stuff naturally formed sulphur? Also, would the sulphur have built up to a point to where it was no longer providing positive benefits and then at that point, would I need a mechanism for removing excess sulphur without disturbing/oxygenating the anaerobic layer?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What I’m wondering is, did I produce sulphur. Was that yellow stuff naturally formed sulphur?

I do not think yellow sulfur is typically produced in reef aquaria. Degradation of organics in low oxygen environments will typically produce hydrogen sulfide, not elemental sulfur.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

What I’m wondering is, did I produce sulphur. Was that yellow stuff naturally formed sulphur? Also, would the sulphur have built up to a point to where it was no longer providing positive benefits and then at that point, would I need a mechanism for removing excess sulphur without disturbing/oxygenating the anaerobic layer?

In bio active anoxic zones always HS is produced ( anaerobic remineralization using sulfate when the nitrate is used up) The HS then can be used by sulfur bacteria for denitrification in the transition zones, there where nitrate is still available, transforming HS back to sulfate or and elemental sulfur, depending on the nitrate availability .
We speak of partial sulfide oxidation and of complete sulfide oxidation. In the latter processes, nitrate is removed and HS from heterotrophic anaerobic remineralisation is processed. Having a deep sand bed a lot of nitrate is removed this way by autotrophic denitrification. These processes also take place in normal nitrifying biofilms.

So, YES, elemental sulfur production is possible, and will take place in a deep sand bed. Elemental sulfur is inert in seawater and will be used for autotrophic denitrification when HS is used up and nitrate becomes available . There is no need for removing produced sulfur.

One does not need a deep sand bed for denitrification.
Having a deep sand bed enough nitrate production is essential, otherwise anaerobic remineralization will release HS to the environment.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I do not think yellow sulfur is typically produced in reef aquaria. Degradation of organics in low oxygen environments will typically produce hydrogen sulfide, not elemental sulfur.

Produced HS is used by sulfur bacteria for denitrification transforming HS back into sulfate or and elemental sulfur, depending on the HS/ nitrate ratio present. Sulfate is formed at an N:S ratio of 8:5. Sulfur is formed at a ratio of 2:5.(SherEnCo2008)
S is produced and reused everywhere a biofilm may grow and nitrate is available.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Aside from the theoretical idea that elemental sulfur might be produced, have you ever seen even a single documented case of it accumulating in a reef tank? In the hundreds of thousands of posts I’ve read over several decades, I have not.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Would a deep sand bed serve the same purpose?
I’m working on a 5 gallon aquarium with a very deep sand bed. The goal is to provide a low/no ammonia, low/no nitrate environment for dwarf seahorses. Dwarf seahorses require a LOT of feeding and they produce a lot of waste. They are especially sensitive to nitrate and ammonia and appear drunk and eventually die if the levels stay too high for too long.

I remember my first reef aquarium having a plenum under the sand and it seemed like I had a lot of success with that aquarium but, I was young and it was 17 years ago. I can’t help but think that I had a nitrogen cycle machine. I kept a moorish idol alive for 2 years in that tank. I also remember getting the urge to clean under that plenum and all the yellow stuff that was there was pretty foul.

As far as I know they are very sensitive to ammonia. In normal conditions ammonia not used up fast enough is used for nitrification. Effective nitrification is essential for effective ammonia removal. Nitrate is safely stored usable nitrogen and can be consumed or and exported, as desired. Nitrate production is essential for maintaining a healthy environment. I have no experience using a plenum but as oxygen transition zones are created some sulfur production due to autotrophic denitrification may be considered normal.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Aside from the theoretical idea that elemental sulfur might be produced, have you ever seen even a single documented case of it accumulating in a reef tank? In the hundreds of thousands of posts I’ve read over several decades, I have not.

Your opinion it is just a theoretical idea?

What is the Yellow stuff?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Your opinion it is just a theoretical idea?

What is the Yellow stuff?

Lots of different things are yellow in a reef tank, from organisms to minerals, and I’m not sure what any of them are. Yellow deposits in CaCO3/CO2 reactors are not rare.

iron sulfide can be yellow, for example.