The Bacterial “Rip Clean” Method

[OrionN]

Not to be confused with other similar threads were you are required to work hard, I’m a laid back kinda reefer and hard work is just not for me, sorry I prefer to allow the bacteria to do that work for me.

The goal of this thread is to discuss and illustrate the use of carbohydrates into clean reef tanks from pollutant that aid the growth of algae and other nuisances bringing biofloc knowledge to the reef aquaria hobby.

Peer reviewed paper

Effect of different biofloc starters on ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite concentrations in the cultured tilapia Oreochromis niloticus system

Background: High stocking density and intensive feeding in aquaculture systems lead to the accumulation of organic waste, which results in an increase in ammonia, nitrite, and nitrite concentrations in culture media. Biofloc is a potential technology ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

( Not that anyone going to read anyways, folks just like to see links )

The above paper illustrates that the use of carbohydrates can be used to reduce ammonia and other pollutants in a system by just feeding the bacteria, yes that’s that simple bacterIa also requires feeding the more carbon they get the more nitrogen and phosphorus compounds they will assimilate into body mass.
To remove the bacteria and the nutrients assimilated from the system is fairly simple, just perform a water change if you don’t have a skimmer, introducing filter feeders to prey on the bacteria and transfer those nutrients into the filter feeder body mass, zooplankton will also prey on bacteria and get eaten by fish transferring nutrients that way by trophic levels and natural as you would see it happen in the sea.

I’m not suggesting to anyone to use tapioca, molasses or sucrose into they’re system, we’re not on a cooking forum just be smart and use the only source of carbohydrates that I know that are made for reef systems, just get some Reef actif and fallow instructions (I don’t own any shares in the company by the way) I just find the product fairly safe to use for any level of experience in aquaria.

Example of a new system, 9 months or so that never had an algae issue, gets a crazy amount of food and often feed reef actif daily after light out.
there is no GAC or GFO from the beginning, there is no mechanical filtration every nutrient that goes in will end up in the fish belly or in a coral filter feeder etc… glass maintenance is just every 3-4 weeks not really sure I think last time I clean it was around Xmas there was many feather dusters starting to grow on it

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Still better than having to clean the tank myself imo.

Happy to hear any thoughts from others

I actually read the article. Supply carbon to stimulated bacterial growth have been around for a long time. I used distill vinegar and vodka in the past. Both of these are highly instilled and with little impurities. There methods certainly is effective in lowering nitrogenous and phosphorous waste from the tank as these wastes are taken up and incorporated into the bacterial as the grow.
For these method to work well the system must have an efficient skimmer to remove the bacterial, thus remove organic from the system. Animals to prey on the bacterial will works in small extend but not like a skimmer to remove suspended bacterial in the water.
Carbon dosing have been extensively researched and discussed in older platform during the early days of reef keeping. If you search for carbon dosing in reef system you will see these discussion

 

[Subsea]

I actually read the article. Supply carbon to stimulated bacterial growth have been around for a long time. I used distill vinegar and Volka in the past. Both of these are highly instilled and with little impurities. There methods certainly is effective in lowering nitrogenous waste from the tank.

Do you use protein skimming when you carbon dose vinegar?

@OrionN
I toured a shrimp farm at Flour Bluff where biofloc management was practiced just below Corpus. Do you still collect stuff from inland bays for your reef? In early Spring, I hope to go to Mustang Island for a week to fish and collect peppermint shrimp at Port Aransas jetties.

Good hearing from you on this thread.

 

[OrionN]

I have protein skimmer to oxygenated the water and remove the bacterial. Bacterial bloom can cause hypoxemia and kill the fish. A lot of the Fauna will eat bacterial from the surfaces or filter bacterial from the water. This is minor in comparison to a good skimmer.
I collected peppermint shrimp many years ago. I don’t put much much animal I collected to the tank but I got my black mangrove seed from the beach and use the sand from the beach for my tank. In early summer often you can catch baby French Angel and Gray Angel at the jetty or the old fish run in the Mustang Island State park (they swim with the damsels in the rocky shore)
Here is a back mangrove in my sump. I got the seed in 10/2020 I think, from the beach.
Of course this plant assimilate phosphorous and nitrogen too.

 

[Subsea]

I went skimmerless 40 years ago and therefore focused on robust air water exchange, using cascading water to cryptic refugium with a mud filter to recycle detritus into the microbial loop. I consider live phytoplankton & live mussels as an organic carbon source just as liquid seaweed and fish food. Instead of exporting bacteria as skimmate, I focus on diversity of filter feeders as well as diversity of micro fauna & fana in substrate & live rock.

PS: Just added a 4’ actinic light bar to four 10K light bars to differentiate between Lime Green Leathers or florescent Green Star Polyps.

 

[OrionN]

Anybody want to dose carbon, cheapest is distilled vinegar. Randy discussed it I several articles. The why and the how are all there. Do a search and read it.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Anybody want to dose carbon, cheapest is distilled vinegar. Randy discussed it I several articles. The why and the how are all there. Do a search and read it.

Randy only discuss acetic acid and ethanol, none of the articles mentions carbohydrates that work in a different manner. Ethanol and acetic acid are an effective way to transform inorganic nutrients like nitrates and phosphates into organic nutrients in the form of bacteria (mostly pelagic) that can then be removed via skimming or bacteria predatory organisms. This is a common concept in our hobby. The use of carbohydrates it’s different as per the article. It’s a way to transform organic nutrients that could be in the form of fish waste or other types of organic matter into less harmful forms of organic nutrients in the form of decomposing bacteria that can be then transferred into the mass of other organisms that prey on bacteria like zooplankton for example, carbohydrates also promote heterotrophic nitrification hence reducing ammonia that can be beneficial for many systems.
therefore not all types of organic carbon are equal or have the same effects in our systems.

 

[OrionN]

All heterotrophs use compels carbon as fuel source autotrophs can manufacture complex carbon from sunlight.
bacterial are heterotrophs and are not prickly with regard to which complex carbon they use to burn, acetic, ethanol or sugar(carbohydrates)
As the bacterial population growth they uptake phosphorous and nitrogen (mainly to produce protein and ATP) the components they need to reproduce and growth. Removing the bacterial from the reef tank, thus remove nitrogenous waste and phosphorous from the system. It is a methods of nutrient exports.

Very simple and effective in removing nitrates and phosphate from the system. However you still need to keep the micro nutrients in line and remove micro toxin from accumulate.
Source of carbons isn’t particularly mater. Just how much.

 

[OrionN]

BTW, the study you posted at the begin of this thread is a poor study. Obviously, the amount of feeding would directly result in the amount of waste that need to be process. Because of this reason, the most important variable that was completely not control was the amount of feeding.
They feed the fish twice a day as needed until full.
If I was to design the study, I would specifically feed the fish specific amount, the same to all systems. rather than feeding until full.
Also the study was on fresh water taplia, not a reef system, which may or may not mean anything.

 

[Dburr1014]

Last night was day 10 for dosing for me. After one week of doing quarter doses per max, I am now doing 3/4 doses every night per Max. This equates to 7 G per 100 gallon system volume.
Here are some photos after 10 days.



I have a couple of things to note, there are a couple of areas that the hair algae has receded are completely gone. One was directly under an SPS colony. The other one was on the back side of my clam, I wished I had taken a picture before but it's noticeably less hair than was before. This I'm having a hard time explaining. After I took these pictures I decided to yank some hair. Some of which I didn't notice any difference it was still hard to pull but then there were some areas where it came off very easily. I'm starting to think that actif may be having an effect on the hair. Hard to say 100% sure, we'll see what the next 10 days bring. After the 7 Days of 3/4 dose I will be going to 100% Max. Just so there's no confusion that would be nightly doing 50% instead of the every other day 100%.

On another note I also would like to say that I had a mishap with my DIY kalk reactor and it dosed pretty much a slurry after dumping in new kalk. I forgot to shut my pump off as I was filling it so I had one SPS colony pretty much rtn mostly but I think I got it to stop. this picture is from 3 days after the event and it's been like this for 2 days so I think it's halted. I'm deciding whether to cut it up or just leave it in place. I do have a rather large frag of this colony that I was going to bring to my lfs for credit. And when I say large I mean it's about 3/4 of this colony in size.

Here are some new pictures.
I noticed my urchin doing some grazing. Seems like the hair is getting weak. Hasn't grown much since I picked it off in my last report.
Heading to New Hampshire tomorrow to see the ice castle before it melts so tonight will be a big dose of 1.8 grams after lights out.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Here are some new pictures.
I noticed my urchin doing some grazing. Seems like the hair is getting weak. Hasn't grown much since I picked it off in my last report.
Heading to New Hampshire tomorrow to see the ice castle before it melts so tonight will be a big dose of 1.8 grams after lights out.

The holdfasts should start getting week as time goes on will be following to see it fully gone.

 

[sixty_reefer]

All heterotrophs use compels carbon as fuel source autotrophs can manufacture complex carbon from sunlight.
bacterial are heterotrophs and are not prickly with regard to which complex carbon they use to burn, acetic, ethanol or sugar(carbohydrates)
As the bacterial population growth they uptake phosphorous and nitrogen (mainly to produce protein and ATP) the components they need to reproduce and growth. Removing the bacterial from the reef tank, thus remove nitrogenous waste and phosphorous from the system. It is a methods of nutrient exports.

Very simple and effective in removing nitrates and phosphate from the system. However you still need to keep the micro nutrients in line and remove micro toxin from accumulate.
Source of carbons isn’t particularly mater. Just how much.

Bacterial Metabolism - Medical Microbiology - NCBI Bookshelf

Metabolism refers to all the biochemical reactions that occur in a cell or organism. The study of bacterial metabolism focuses on the chemical diversity of substrate oxidations and dissimilation reactions (reactions by which substrate molecules are broken down), which normally function in...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[OrionN]

Bacterial Metabolism - Medical Microbiology - NCBI Bookshelf

Metabolism refers to all the biochemical reactions that occur in a cell or organism. The study of bacterial metabolism focuses on the chemical diversity of substrate oxidations and dissimilation reactions (reactions by which substrate molecules are broken down), which normally function in...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I am not saying that bacterial do not metabolize carbohydrates. They love the stuff and grow like wildfire when given carbohydrates. But the bacterial like us metabolized ethyl alcohol, acetic acid and get energy from these complex organic molecules too. Adding alcohol and vinegar is a perfectly fine way to stimulate bacterial growth since their rate limiting nutrient is Carbon (energy) shortage.

 

[brandon429]

“Not to be confused with other similar threads were you are required to work hard, I’m a laid back kinda reefer and hard work is just not for me, sorry I prefer to allow the bacteria to do that work for me”




this isnt a fix invasion thread, or how to move reefs without recycling thread (what rip cleans actually do)

Sixty it would be better and more reflective of logged work if you let readers know which portions of your claim here can be subbed for rip cleans and which portions can’t



this thread is at page 34 with no cures or tank transfers using Tropic Marin dosers as the sole guide. How many cures and tank skip cycle transfers did real rip cleaning have by page 34:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

nobody can guide safe tank transfers by just dosing the first tank for a few months with tropic marin dosers, then attempt a rinseless transfer into the new tank: that would kill peoples reefs. To equivocate anything here with a real rip clean or claim safer outcomes is short changing the real work we do


This method is dependent on a doser that can run out, or be held up in supply chain issues. Tap water can’t

We are being told by readers that using less expensive and more common sources for carbon work equally well, this thread isn’t clearing the bar to justify its repeat cost so far in my opinion

Reef Actif may be a quality feeding product for sure, still to be determined, but it is not in any universe a sub in for what real rip cleans can do on demand per results and timing on file.

 

[brandon429]

A reader could infer from the blanket statement claim that they don’t need to rinse old sand during a tank transfer = just use reef Actif instead

they might think they can skip pre rinsing their new sand and get a perfectly clean reef in two days by just using reef Actif additive

you should at least tell readers your method is experimental and for feeding corals well, or for possibly maybe helping with algae above the sandbed line. It shouldn’t be positioned as a rip clean replacement because no works are completed for anyone so far, the experiment is ongoing.


here’s a fairer starting opening claim you should use instead:

“Contrasted to methods that require hard work, I’m a laid back reefer interested in evolving means and methods people can use to reduce problematic algae while increasing the feed quality for their corals at the same time. Bacteria can make this job more efficient. A specialized doser from Tropic Marin I’ve been using has helped my tank tremendously and we want to further it’s expansion out to the reefing world using collected work examples here. While the product can’t be used in place of high-work sand rinsing modes to effect safe tank moves and transfers of substrate, or recover from full reef crashes, I do have its application method tuned in such a way that we may not need those deep rinse methods any longer to get you faster coral growth with much less algae with much less work required to boost your enjoyment in reefing“

that’s a perfectly fair and realistic claim to use based on 34 pages of results between the two threads.

 

[brandon429]

Subsea

your tank looked amazing before

it looks amazing after equally well agreed. Having to add clean up crews to assist isn’t selling reef Actif as well as solely getting those results off the doser would sell it


**sometimes a weakened plant structure becomes more palatable to clean up crews, we see this effect in peroxide threads commonly and peroxide is much less safe than Actif would be, there’s a potential sales angle someone could claim for the doser: it may make clean up crews actually begin to clean up




we still need readers to know the distinction between these two mutually exclusive methods. Rip cleans use bacterial removal vs input or growth to attain the safety results on file, rip cleaning can never ever vector disease into someone’s tank like adding new clean up crews sure can

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

Subsea how has your nitrate and phosphate reacted with the reef actif? Have you noticed them seem to drop? I know we mentioned they weren’t supposed to drop at the same rate as carbon dosing, but I’m curious. If algae’s aren’t consuming these nutrients what are the effects?

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

So, I called in reinforcements for algae control. I heard Randy say that the best offense against GHA was herbivores. Now I have two separate brigades: The Golden Astrae and The Blue Legs. Because of numerous other systems, I buy janitors in bulk. Half of the 400 went into this 75G display, to be transferred when they catch up with some help from me.

Have you tried turbo snails? They work great. Astrae do ok but they are always laying over. I try to avoid them.

 

[Subsea]

Subsea how has your nitrate and phosphate reacted with the reef actif? Have you noticed them seem to drop? I know we mentioned they weren’t supposed to drop at the same rate as carbon dosing, but I’m curious. If algae’s aren’t consuming these nutrients what are the effects?

I have unopened test kits that expired 10 years ago, so I can’t help with those numbers.

With respect to noted results after 3 weeks of 100% dose rate every 2 days: the substrate is cleaning up as well as live rock beginning to show coraline instead of algae green with the most noted change occurring today with GHA starting to float free of holdfast.

 

[Subsea]

I must admit that I have stacked the deck against Reef Actif. I have not cleaned glass nor vacuum sandbed in three weeks. Every other system got TLC: live phytoplankton, live mussels sliced & diced, frozen cubes & dry fish food. No systems gets scheduled water changes or sand vacuumed unless needed. I almost always lightly stir substrate.

Lights on for 2 minutes on dual 55G tanks, both skimmerless & sumpless.

The first picture shows two display tanks (120G on left & 75G on the right) that both started Reef Actif dosing protocol 3 weeks ago. The 75G display on the right has been set up for 25 years and discontinued Reef Actif one week ago due to persistent black Cynobacteria, which was vacuumed out/nutrient export under the heading of good husbandry or TLC.

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

Has anyone reported on the results of the nutrients while using reef actif? I’m just trying to see if this really is any different than carbon dosing.