The myth that LED lights last forever

[FishTruck]

My point in this thread is that a lot of people used the excuse that leds don't degrade over time as a reason to buy fancy new gadgets that don't genuinely add anything better than they had previously. The hobby is about growing corals in a glass box not about sliders in an app, control ability, AB+ spectrums and all that BS. The lowering of heat output is the only true benefit and even that is subjective because your tank heater has to come on more so is that really saving any money.

That truth is if people really cared only about coral health and vitality they would never use anything but 6500k MH as close to sunlight as we are ever going to get.

There is no way I am going to do a spectral analysis on my 10 year old radions, or buy new ones until they completely die. Too expensive. It's not like just swapping out some bulbs in the old days, every year or two.

I think Albert Theil said in 1989 something to the effect that the 6500k MH bulb was the first and last consideration - ever - period - for growing coral (in his book Advanced Reef Keeping). I can't find my copy.

He didn't know that there was going to be a huge industry built on brown corals that only look great with outrageous blue lights though!

Oh, how much better life was in the late 80s...

 

[BeanAnimal]

When I started my tank I was perfectly happy with my black box leds. A couple years later i decided to "upgrade" to hydra64hds. Again, I was perfectly content with them for a couple years until I realized they didn't quite have the spread of the Chinese fixtures. So I added another 64hd. Instantly i could visually see that it was a different color that the other fixtures, especially when ramping up or down. The new one had a more purplish blue while the 2 year old units looked more teal colored. All running same program togethe. So 2 years and the spectrum shifted.

More than likely not color shift of the old fixtUre. It rather the NEW fixture was built with different generation of diode having different binning and/or different phosphor details, as well as possible driver component differences in hardware revisions. 2 years is a long time for low volume electronics production. These folks get what they can and 2 years is an eternity in diode manufacturing.

However, even high volume major oems have the same issue. This means that if you have 10 can lights in a room and one goes bad 2 years in, the replacement of same model will likely not look exactly the same due to differences in diode binning and manufacture and availability in the 2 year span.

How much does it matter? I have no clue. But I was taught to change my t5s every year because the spectrum shifted, so I assume led are similar.

They are not similar, especially if driven properly.

So what I would need to replace $3k of lights every few years instead of a few hundred in bulbs in that same time? I find that ridiculous.

Thankfully, that is not the case.

 

[oreo54]

But I was taught to change my t5s every year because the spectrum shifted, so I assume led are similar

Sooo wrong.

The new one had a more purplish blue while the 2 year old units looked more teal colored.

2 things, either different bins or different driver components or to be honest more than likely violet/"UV" fade.
Running those channels 100% is probably not a great idea..

 

[shwareefer]

Spectrum shift, par reduction, how much does it actually matter or is this just another long held belief based on ancient anecdotes? This thread from @Dana Riddle has a percentage of spectrum from the entire scale in it.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/just-for-fun-the-perfect-spectrum.374396/

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

That is your opinion, but most certainly not mine. Some people are in the hobby because they like to tinker with things, others for the fish, and yet others.

This sums it up quite well.

Most equipment debate threads try real hard to pull people over into their camp by using clever anecdotes. The truth of the matter is that hobbyist have different perspective and perceived needs.

Every time I read a post from A. grandis I immediately dismiss him as being stuck in the past. But that's probably not true, just a convenient way for me to dismiss what he says. I'm sure it has more to do with what brings him happiness.

Perhaps cultivating relationships with MH bulb manufacturers in an effort to keep the tech relevant is just as big a part of his hobby as servicing a skimmer and for him there's a joy in that. Not my cup of tea but at the same time, what brings me joy isn't the same as others.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Every time I read a post from A. grandis I immediately dismiss him as being stuck in the past. But that's probably not true, just a convenient way for me to dismiss what he says. I'm sure it has more to do with what brings him happiness.

Perhaps cultivating relationships with MH bulb manufacturers in an effort to keep the tech relevant is just as big a part of his hobby as servicing a skimmer and for him there's a joy in that. Not my cup of tea but at the same time, what brings me joy isn't the same as others.

Unfortunately, so many of these folks fail to recognize that instead of explaining what they get out of the hobby, they try to force other people to get the same thing out of it.

Heck we even had a club member who's only apparent interest in the hobby was some odd type of fame or recognition attainable by social climbing from lesser important hobby figures to more... I suppose to be a household name at MACNAs or something. She wasn't really into fish, or coral or anything to do with reefs, but instead only interested in meeting and befriending the people who were recognized as the "IT" in the hobby and being recognized as being in with them and recognized along with them. So not a name dropper, but a literal social climber with little interest in the actual hobby itself, but wholly dedicated to participating in the social aspect of it and being recognized as a star in it.

 

[rtparty]

Brands like Ecotech bring out Radions as frequently as apple do iPhones. Its a gravy train nothing more.

Can’t use myth in your title and then use a bunch of opinions and myths in your argument. Sticking to facts is a much better approach.

iPhone is on their 15th version (plus or minus 1 but iPhone 15 is now out.) Radion is on their 6th with G6. Both came out around the same time. And the funny thing is both are vastly improved over their original release.

 

[Bpb]

This sums it up quite well.

Most equipment debate threads try real hard to pull people over into their camp by using clever anecdotes. The truth of the matter is that hobbyist have different perspective and perceived needs.

Every time I read a post from A. grandis I immediately dismiss him as being stuck in the past. But that's probably not true, just a convenient way for me to dismiss what he says. I'm sure it has more to do with what brings him happiness.

Perhaps cultivating relationships with MH bulb manufacturers in an effort to keep the tech relevant is just as big a part of his hobby as servicing a skimmer and for him there's a joy in that. Not my cup of tea but at the same time, what brings me joy isn't the same as others.

Nailed it. Everybody is in the hobby for different reasons. And those reasons change over time. Based on what input we have, we can reasonably assume some people are honestly just bulb hobbyists and the reef tank is just the canvas, as evidenced by their lack of contribution to any other topics in the hobby outside of bulbs and ballasts. This is the lighting subforum after all

And that is fine. We cannot choose or force our interests. They just happen.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Nailed it. Everybody is in the hobby for different reasons. And those reasons change over time. Based on what input we have, we can reasonably assume some people are honestly just bulb hobbyists and the reef tank is just the canvas, as evidenced by their lack of contribution to any other topics in the hobby outside of bulbs and ballasts. This is the lighting subforum after all

And that is fine. We cannot choose or force our interests. They just happen.

Exactly -

I spent the first 10 years in this hobby focussed on DIY high end equipment and automated control of equipment, electronics, and what makes the reef tick from a chemical. biological and mechanical standpoint, not what was in the reef.

The next 5 years - not caring about anything other than not dealing with the reef. It was autopilot, but I still loved it enough to stay in the hobby.

I did not then (and still do not) give a flying hoot about coral names (real or sensationalized) or fish names, etc.

I no longer have the time, energy or desire to go down any DIY rabbit-holes, that is no longer my interest whatsoever. I purchased a small fortune in GHL equipment and now prefer to simply enjoy watching the reef.

While I know far more than most reef keepers about every aspect of lighting from Planck's constant, fluorescence and Stoke's shifts to plasma arcs and ballast topologies... I just don't care enough in context to this hobby to do any more than put a lamp over my tank that is acceptably pleasing to my eye and grows corals. I only enter these debate when I see absolute nonsense being tossed around...

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I miss the buzzing / humming noise.

My favorite post in this whole thread!

 

[MnFish1]

Seems like the OP is saying there is no difference - so doesn't it become a moot point? My opinion is that LED's last at least as long as T5's - (by cost) - and that if an LED system stops working it's often a relatively inexpensive fix to repair it.

 

[Oldreefer44]

Still waiting for what "grows coral better" means.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Seems like the OP is saying there is no difference - so doesn't it become a moot point? My opinion is that LED's last at least as long as T5's - (by cost) - and that if an LED system stops working it's often a relatively inexpensive fix to repair it.

I don't think that even from a "cost" perspective the are the same.

Sure - you can compare a shoestring T5 setup lifetime cost to a top of the line LED cost and say they are close...

But take a top of the line T5 setup compared to a top of the line LED setup for the same tank and the LEDs have a lower lifetime cost per photon delivered or polyp grown or whatever silly metric one wants to apply.

Likewise you can take a black box LED special and compare it to a top of the line T5 and come out even more lopsided.

The OP's point was not they they were the "same" - he tried to flailing make the intellectual argument that LEDs are inferior when all things are considered.

 

[Ef4life]

I miss the buzzing / humming noise.

I’m taking down my mh today - a 70w current sunpod - to replace with an orphek, I’m going to miss the initial start phase of the bulb warming up and coming to temperature and the slight buzz of the ac powered cooling fans kicking on. Sadly I can’t get any good replacement bulbs anymore. Amazon sells some cheap reef 10,14,20k bulbs but they aren’t great imo. Im going to keep it stored though just for the retro aspect

 

[MnFish1]

The OP's point was not they they were the "same" - he tried to flailing make the intellectual argument that LEDs are inferior when all things are considered.

Yes - my comment was that after reading multiple posts in the thread (not all) - it's a moot point. I agree with you he failed to make the argument that LED's are inferior - at worst, they are equivalent IMHO - and at best LED's have advantages over T5's

 

[buruskeee]

Shhh - or somebody will steal the idea and bake it in, just like in modern autos.

Fun Fact - When the first pixel based TVs came out, people were still choosing CRTs based on the having "more control". You see (no pun) there is no "sharpness" control for pixel based displays and people saw the lack of a "sharpness" control as con of LCDs. So Sony (if I remember) added a sharpness control to their LCD, it did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and was a cosmetic add-on, but gave people what they thought that they were missing. Then every other OEM had to follow suit so that they did not look like they were lacking the same tech or control. This went on for almost 15 years

Fun fact - I designed the GPU blocked for the first iteration of the LG 4K smart TV which used 14nm FINFET - opened up a huge other world in leakage power and what it took to solve it compared to traditional transistors.

I know a thing or two about digital circuit design and LEDs.

This thread is hilarious to me. People will always knock newer tech because of forever being an old tech truther.

One thing I will say however, we’ve never seen the coloration of corals that have been coming out of these farms until the last decade. Maybe that’s photography, maybe it’s control of spectrum - maybe we can debate about that too. To each his own.

Regardless, for me - putting out the PAR with the spectrum at a fraction of the wattage and heat? Yes please.

I’ve been a big T5 type of person and was looking to use a hybrid for fill light, but the AI Blades for fill are for sure changing that consideration for me the more and more data and results I see from folks using them.

Created my own LED system over 15 years ago to test out since no one was making them for retail yet. LED tech has come a very long ways since getting back into the hobby from back then.

 

[Doctorgori]

There is definitely entertainment value to this thread…
I cut my teeth on 4800k MH and 6500k T5’s … corals can grow under a wide range of bulbs…that’s fact
Cheap LED’s ? yup, absolutely they go bad but quality LEDs ; I dunno, I’m still running my 10yr + Kessils.., FAIK my corals kids (spawn) will grow up deformed and need special ed
…back to your regularly scheduled programming

 

[oreo54]

Exactly -

I spent the first 10 years in this hobby focussed on DIY high end equipment and automated control of equipment, electronics, and what makes the reef tick from a chemical. biological and mechanical standpoint, not what was in the reef.

The next 5 years - not caring about anything other than not dealing with the reef. It was autopilot, but I still loved it enough to stay in the hobby.

I did not then (and still do not) give a flying hoot about coral names (real or sensationalized) or fish names, etc.

I no longer have the time, energy or desire to go down any DIY rabbit-holes, that is no longer my interest whatsoever. I purchased a small fortune in GHL equipment and now prefer to simply enjoy watching the reef.

Hey you and o2 and der willie something are responsible for me being here.
I needed to learn about the new tech to light my return to aquariums (fw sorry_)
Soo much good "intros to DIY led" at RC.
MH's were never in my future.. Too bulky, too bloody hot.
t5's well too fragile
Besides who ( well I know who) can resist the small footprint and ease of control and programming to emulate a more err..natural enviroment.



Man you "scolded" me a few times.
Actually a bit embarrassing looking back at where I used radion instead of radium.
I was young.
But what was more interesting is my old quote from reef central
on April 2015

.2 1/2 years and 4139 posts later..where have we got to??

Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

I have 4 Kessil A360 X and two 400 watt MHs on my 400 gal SPS dominant tank...I'll always have LEDs for the viewing on my relaxing evenings. The MHs come on while I'm at work, they give my tank the growth it needs, but not very calming like the blue tones from my LEDs..I think a combo is the...

forums.reefcentral.com

Sadly never responded to the VERY last post.
I ended up getting the Giesemann that I was looking for. I'm running (2) 250W DE Phoenix 14K set on the HQI setting. This fixture also has (4) 54W T5s and I running (2) ATI Coral Plus and (2) ATI Pure Actinics.
(MY NOTE:716watts. Below 570 watts , for arguement just use 420W (80% and minus rg and ignoring diffuser losses)
With in 2 weeks, the corals colored up, growth took off, the overall appearance look so much better.
For reference, I had (3) Radion XR30 G4 Pro with diffusers running the AB+ at 80%.

Gee wonder why "

corals colored up, growth took off

Common "analysis".. Add a bunch more energy ..blame leds..

SHORT synopsis. Started Aug 2012, ended Apr 2020 6089 posts and ON we go:

Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides​

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Not to mention a T5 8 bulb fixture runs 400W already.

Meh, in the grand scheme of expenses of the tank, a few hundred watt hours doesn't really factor in for me.

 

[buruskeee]

Meh, in the grand scheme of expenses of the tank, a few hundred watt hours doesn't really factor in for me.

If you were in CA that would be a huge consideration. SDGE, for example, charges over $0.80/kWh during the day. PGE and SCE aren’t far behind. Lucky for me, I’m not in one of the big 3 public utility territories, so my average cost is $0.13/kWh - but I have solar anyhow so the extra 2,200kWh annually my 5ft tank is costing me isn’t much anyhow.