Medication might work, but in my experience is unsuccessful. If your going to freshwater dip id use h202 in tank water (separate container) . It kills it pretty fast.
Freshwater dips messes up all the chemistry for the fish, h202 doesnt.
WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENING?
- Thread starter garra671
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Medication might work, but in my experience is unsuccessful. If your going to freshwater dip id use h202 in tank water (separate container) . It kills it pretty fast.
Freshwater dips messes up all the chemistry for the fish, h202 doesnt.
robert
Valuable Member
Well, its silly to base some portions of our treatments on cold water studies while ignoring the findings of those studies on other aspects or our treatment choices. What is found is that there are thousands of variants of ich - not all of which are constrained to warm waters. It was found that the trophant stage - the feeding parasitic stage that we are all familiar with - could extend to 4-5 months in cold water. Its a survival mechanism which ensures that ich will be back in the spring in temperate regions...There are also strains if ich which do not follow the simple 4 stage life cycle...but again these are probably not encountered in our systems.
I was being facetious when I said that copper should be extended for seven months as its very unlikely with the strains we encounter in our systems that the trophants can sequester for 4-5 months. Its equally unlikely that we would encounter strains that can encyst up to 72 days...
As far as encountering ich and velvet - I assure you I have had my fair share in my systems. I am very confortable in saying that these are easily managed and should never be lethal provided the tank is equiped with healthy water, adequate flow and filtration. Its not just my assertion - it is also the opinion of many in aquaculture and those running public aquariums.
Its not that quarantine is a bad idea - its not - obviously the best way to prevent ich or velvet is to prevent it from getting into the system in the first place. But once its in - or any other pathogen with a free swimming stage for that matter - proper design of the system is your best defense.
Ich and velvet both are large - slow - and easily stripped from the water column by even simpler forms of filtration. They are chemotaxic and will drop from your fish while they are bedded down for the night and will reattach after they excyst also during the sleep interval. Bottom flow is one of the easiest approaches to limit ich - but with the tendancy for people choosing fine grained substrates for aesthetic reasons, and not wanting this to blow around - they tend to eliminate this essential element from their systems - and the result is ideal locations for ich and velvet to encyst and then excyst to locate its host.
Turnover and filtration are other elements which should be employed to "ich proof" your system. In tank flow is not the same as turnover - theronts have a very limited time to find their host and they are not fast - at best they can propel themselves at 15' per hour. Even if there is a clear chemotrophic trail for them to follow - they cannot swim upstream in any tank with even a moderate flow. But again the trend is to break up flow in the system with too much rock and too many dead zones. Theronts can survive up to 18 hours - but their ability to infect begins to fail after six hours or so. Assuming you eliminate or minimize dead zones - you can easily strip the vast majority of theronts from the water in a realtively short period of time. If you follow the 10x guidline for turnover and have good filtration - 99% of theronts should be out of the system inside of an hour. 60% or so in the first 10 minutes.
Ich and velvet at lethal levels in your system tells you that your tank is inadequately provisioned for the fish your keeping. By all means - take whatever steps are required to save your stock - just remember - there are many, many more pathogens than ich and velvet - and they will find a way into your system eventually - If your tank is not configured to handle these - then at best you've just postponed disaster. If you take the time to correct the issues - then neither ich or velvet can acheive lethal levels and your in better position to protect all of your stock - fish, corals and inverts, against all pathogens, even those we don't yet recognize, which have a free swimming stage. Did you know there are many variants of velvet? - many target other inhabitants of your tank other than fish...
You call it ich management - I call it prevention.
As to the pictures of the yellow tang - I susect it to be ich. It has a velvet sheen - but that may be just the lighting ..the blood on the fin is indicative of poor water quality - possibly a pH issue - so I would be on guard for secondary bacterial infection. Most fish die as the trophonts drop from the fish - this is either bacterial sequlae or a disruption of the fishes osmotic balance - I've read both.
I was being facetious when I said that copper should be extended for seven months as its very unlikely with the strains we encounter in our systems that the trophants can sequester for 4-5 months. Its equally unlikely that we would encounter strains that can encyst up to 72 days...
As far as encountering ich and velvet - I assure you I have had my fair share in my systems. I am very confortable in saying that these are easily managed and should never be lethal provided the tank is equiped with healthy water, adequate flow and filtration. Its not just my assertion - it is also the opinion of many in aquaculture and those running public aquariums.
Its not that quarantine is a bad idea - its not - obviously the best way to prevent ich or velvet is to prevent it from getting into the system in the first place. But once its in - or any other pathogen with a free swimming stage for that matter - proper design of the system is your best defense.
Ich and velvet both are large - slow - and easily stripped from the water column by even simpler forms of filtration. They are chemotaxic and will drop from your fish while they are bedded down for the night and will reattach after they excyst also during the sleep interval. Bottom flow is one of the easiest approaches to limit ich - but with the tendancy for people choosing fine grained substrates for aesthetic reasons, and not wanting this to blow around - they tend to eliminate this essential element from their systems - and the result is ideal locations for ich and velvet to encyst and then excyst to locate its host.
Turnover and filtration are other elements which should be employed to "ich proof" your system. In tank flow is not the same as turnover - theronts have a very limited time to find their host and they are not fast - at best they can propel themselves at 15' per hour. Even if there is a clear chemotrophic trail for them to follow - they cannot swim upstream in any tank with even a moderate flow. But again the trend is to break up flow in the system with too much rock and too many dead zones. Theronts can survive up to 18 hours - but their ability to infect begins to fail after six hours or so. Assuming you eliminate or minimize dead zones - you can easily strip the vast majority of theronts from the water in a realtively short period of time. If you follow the 10x guidline for turnover and have good filtration - 99% of theronts should be out of the system inside of an hour. 60% or so in the first 10 minutes.
Ich and velvet at lethal levels in your system tells you that your tank is inadequately provisioned for the fish your keeping. By all means - take whatever steps are required to save your stock - just remember - there are many, many more pathogens than ich and velvet - and they will find a way into your system eventually - If your tank is not configured to handle these - then at best you've just postponed disaster. If you take the time to correct the issues - then neither ich or velvet can acheive lethal levels and your in better position to protect all of your stock - fish, corals and inverts, against all pathogens, even those we don't yet recognize, which have a free swimming stage. Did you know there are many variants of velvet? - many target other inhabitants of your tank other than fish...
You call it ich management - I call it prevention.
As to the pictures of the yellow tang - I susect it to be ich. It has a velvet sheen - but that may be just the lighting ..the blood on the fin is indicative of poor water quality - possibly a pH issue - so I would be on guard for secondary bacterial infection. Most fish die as the trophonts drop from the fish - this is either bacterial sequlae or a disruption of the fishes osmotic balance - I've read both.
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Thank you for posting this. I found it hard to believe that it was in fact velvet I really don't feel the fish would be alive this long and still eating as much as they do if it was in fact velvet. As well I mentioned earlier that my PH was low and that may have been what caused the outbreak of ich in the first place I know my fish are healthy and the only reason this happened is because I neglected my water change regiment. I did a partial water change day before yesterday when I was putting new media into my reactor and that's the same time I started feeding garlic and saw the yellow tang improve. I think my PH is my issue atm that's causing the stress and as long as I can keep the fish themselves healthy they should be able to fight it off correct? What do I do once the fish are better? Do fish just carry the ich disease continuously like humans continuously carry diseases that can flare up from time to time when our immune systems are ****? If so would it even be worth trying to eliminate the disease itself from the DT? Also I know I have a lot of flow I have 2 mp40s in my system with the only 2 dead spots being at the 2 front corners of my tank (I reguraly stir them up as well)
I know that. That's why I'm wondering if it's even worth trying to treat the DT with something. I would have to pull out all of the corals to do it. And don't really have 72 days to throw away. Is there anything naturally I could do to help dwindle the numbers (look at my post previous to this one)
bknapp
Has been left unattended
72 days to throw away? Is this a race? Or is it our responsibility as hobbyist to keep our livestock as healthy as possible?
You don't have to remove the rocks, corals or inverts to successfully cure your tank from ich. You need to keep fish out of the tank for at least 72 days. Just fish need removal and treatment. You'll "starve" the parasite by not giving it a host to feed on.
If you don't cure the DT from ich (or velvet) it's a ticking time bomb. And garlic or h2o2 aren't cures, band aids at best.
You don't have to remove the rocks, corals or inverts to successfully cure your tank from ich. You need to keep fish out of the tank for at least 72 days. Just fish need removal and treatment. You'll "starve" the parasite by not giving it a host to feed on.
If you don't cure the DT from ich (or velvet) it's a ticking time bomb. And garlic or h2o2 aren't cures, band aids at best.
den75
Active Member
Yes, you would. Just because you can't see it on them it could be in their gills. They will remain hosts to the ich parasite and by leaving them in the ich will remain in the system. Fallow means no fish at all in the DT.
bknapp
Has been left unattended
Yes. Every fish has to be removed before the process can begin. Tedious? Absolutely. The only way to remove the parasite? Absolutely. Just because you cannot see the visible signs of ich doesn't mean the fish doesn't have it.
There is an awesome ammount of great Info on r2r. Check the following link to do research on setting up a QT, medicating and so on...
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-and-diagnosis.771/
@bknapp @robert @melev @Cory Has anyone heard of or known someone that has used this? It goes into detail about the different stages of ich and velvet and claims it's a reef safe eradicate.. I figure anything is worth a shot http://m.ebay.com/itm/121859661475?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368 (Go to product details)
I suggest to refer back to humblefish post number 26. Those pics look like velvet to me on the yellow tang which i day because it is just sooo covered. If it's been snowing signs for more than a week then ich might be more likely. Also if some of your more resistant fish such as melanurus is not showing signs then I'd also lean toward ich. Also looks like a bacterial infection on the yellow tang. See the redness on the coral fin?
My suggestion would be to remove them asap, into a freshwater dip temp matched and ph matched to your tank water. This is for some temporary but immediate relief in case it is velvet. I'd only do this step for the tang and clown. If also us kanamycin in the dip for the tangs bacterial infection. It may give some temporary relief but won't be enough to cure it. Follow that up by setting up a qt with new water. Don't forget to let the new water mix for at least 12 hours, they say 24 actually but I find that's overkill. Newly mixed water burns their gills and can kill your fish faster than the ailment your treating. All you need for the quarantine is a heater and airstone bubbler preferably without the airstone. Begin copper. Can also use a hang on the back filter if you have one playing around but not needed.
You'll have to keep a close eye on ammonia and probably daily or every other day water changes. As well as keeping an eye on copper level. Once you get above therapeutic level of copper you can't let it go under or you'll have to begin over. If using cupramine you'll need sea chem color test, none other will be accurate. Also no ammonia test will be accurate, you would need a sea chem ammonia badge.
Otherwise your looking at a total tank fish wipe out.
My suggestion would be to remove them asap, into a freshwater dip temp matched and ph matched to your tank water. This is for some temporary but immediate relief in case it is velvet. I'd only do this step for the tang and clown. If also us kanamycin in the dip for the tangs bacterial infection. It may give some temporary relief but won't be enough to cure it. Follow that up by setting up a qt with new water. Don't forget to let the new water mix for at least 12 hours, they say 24 actually but I find that's overkill. Newly mixed water burns their gills and can kill your fish faster than the ailment your treating. All you need for the quarantine is a heater and airstone bubbler preferably without the airstone. Begin copper. Can also use a hang on the back filter if you have one playing around but not needed.
You'll have to keep a close eye on ammonia and probably daily or every other day water changes. As well as keeping an eye on copper level. Once you get above therapeutic level of copper you can't let it go under or you'll have to begin over. If using cupramine you'll need sea chem color test, none other will be accurate. Also no ammonia test will be accurate, you would need a sea chem ammonia badge.
Otherwise your looking at a total tank fish wipe out.
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Any red streaks on the anthias? I noticed you said the yellow tang had one. Uronema marium can present in red hemorrhages and is often seen in anthias in damsels and can be fatal in only a few hours. Yellow tang might have been strong enough to fight it.
I like the thought but ime that shows as a lesion very fast, open sore more or less. And death within hours. I've had a lot of it with green chromis in the past, and gave up with them at the time.
I agree. I've seen it present in red streaks and more like open wounds, depending on the immune system of the particular fish. Often kills very fast, but I've seen fish be able to fight it on their own, or with medication. Seems like they either get it and die or do not ever get it though. Green chromis and anthias seem to be very susceptible ime. The LFS I work for and my tank has gotten it. Just my .02
TylerS
Active Member
@garra671, I've read through this whole post and have a couple of pieces of advice. Unfortunately I think you've gotten a lot of advice and it might be hard to weed through and pick out the best advice to follow.
In general, when looking for solutions to problems I try to find the same solution presented in multiple locations. I give a heavy weight to actual books, or references to research. Ironically I give very little weight to individuals on forums (even though I'm now giving you advice as an individual on a forum...). The stickies on the tops of forums are the exceptions to this, since they will typically be very common advice and "reviewed" by everyone on the forum. When spending money and time on a hobby I don't want to waste time and money on trying new things out.
For your situation you can always try whatever you want, and see if it works (i.e. garlic and reef safe treatments). But my recommendations below will be advice that I've read over and over, from actual books, and respected authors. You might find one or two people who say garlic works, or reef safe treatments work, but if it's just one or two people you should be skeptical.
My specific recommendation for your situation:
1) get over the garlic. It would be nice if the cure was so simple, but it won't work for external parasites.
2) Add up the cost of your fish in your tank (and corals... since trying to treat in the tank my actually kill your corals/clam) and the cost of fish/corals you plan to buy in the future. Compare that to the cost of a quarantine setup, and I guarantee that the quarantine will be cheaper. You will then have more fun in the hobby when you don't have to stress out over diseases and fish dying.
3) for parasites like ich, and marine velvet cupramine is a safe and proven medication (can not go in display tank!). There are other solutions, but I've read about cupramine everywhere (including books).
4) buy a good book or two and read it. This hobby is incredibly complex, and sorting through all of the "advice" in forums is difficult. At least a book is a single source you can always go to for advice. The conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner is a good one that people recommend. I also appreciated the straight forward advice in Mr. Saltwater tanks book "No-Nonsense Guide to Marine Fish Disease, Treatments and Quarantine".
5) personally I would ignore cory's hydrogen peroxide recommendations (and in general anyone who thinks they need to repeat the same thing over and over to try to gain notice).
In general, when looking for solutions to problems I try to find the same solution presented in multiple locations. I give a heavy weight to actual books, or references to research. Ironically I give very little weight to individuals on forums (even though I'm now giving you advice as an individual on a forum...). The stickies on the tops of forums are the exceptions to this, since they will typically be very common advice and "reviewed" by everyone on the forum. When spending money and time on a hobby I don't want to waste time and money on trying new things out.
For your situation you can always try whatever you want, and see if it works (i.e. garlic and reef safe treatments). But my recommendations below will be advice that I've read over and over, from actual books, and respected authors. You might find one or two people who say garlic works, or reef safe treatments work, but if it's just one or two people you should be skeptical.
My specific recommendation for your situation:
1) get over the garlic. It would be nice if the cure was so simple, but it won't work for external parasites.
2) Add up the cost of your fish in your tank (and corals... since trying to treat in the tank my actually kill your corals/clam) and the cost of fish/corals you plan to buy in the future. Compare that to the cost of a quarantine setup, and I guarantee that the quarantine will be cheaper. You will then have more fun in the hobby when you don't have to stress out over diseases and fish dying.
3) for parasites like ich, and marine velvet cupramine is a safe and proven medication (can not go in display tank!). There are other solutions, but I've read about cupramine everywhere (including books).
4) buy a good book or two and read it. This hobby is incredibly complex, and sorting through all of the "advice" in forums is difficult. At least a book is a single source you can always go to for advice. The conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner is a good one that people recommend. I also appreciated the straight forward advice in Mr. Saltwater tanks book "No-Nonsense Guide to Marine Fish Disease, Treatments and Quarantine".
5) personally I would ignore cory's hydrogen peroxide recommendations (and in general anyone who thinks they need to repeat the same thing over and over to try to gain notice).
@garra671 Based on the pic of that YT is post #39, I am quite confident you are dealing with Marine Velvet Disease here. I have zero experience using hydrogen peroxide or "filtering out" velvet, so I cannot speak intelligently on these methods. However, I have done extensive research & testing into treating velvet, and this is the protocol I finally came up with that seems to work the best: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/defeating-marine-velvet-disease.217570/
At the very least, all your fish need to go into QT, and be treated with either copper or Chloroquine phosphate ASAP. But at the end of the day it is your tank and you must decide who's advice to follow.
At the very least, all your fish need to go into QT, and be treated with either copper or Chloroquine phosphate ASAP. But at the end of the day it is your tank and you must decide who's advice to follow.
@Humblefish @TylerS @Triggreef @bknapp The tang was still alive this morning as was the clownfish. The tang was in its normal location and clownfish was at the bottom of the tank inside of a torch coral. (Usually he's at the top swimming around the corners) neither looked better or worse but I'm stuck at work until 1:30 so I can't be sure as my lights weren't on at 5am. Money is no option for me to setup a QT and infact I already have a Spair tank 17gallon bow front. I just don't want to stick them all in it... A yellow tang with 5 other fish for a month + would probably kill them on its own in a tank that size. As of right now I'm going to just hope my tang can fight it off if he God forbid dies... Then I will remove all of the fish from the system put them into the 17gallon and treat with cupramine. Wether it's velvet or ich though the DT will need to be fish less for 6 weeks correct?
Velvet = 6 weeks
Ich = 76 days
Overkill for both, but it takes into consideration worst case scenario so you aren't going fallow for nothing.
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