WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENING?

[shoelaceike]

bayer attacks the nervous system though correct? theoretically ich is a living animal with a nervous system? do you think even with changing the plug out and dipping the coral in bayer and then reattaching to my own plug i would still have a chance of bringing ich/velvet into my system?

From what I understand, the stage that could be on a rock or coral plug would be the tomont stage.....at this stage it encysts and forms a hard shell which is why copper doesn't work at this stage. For the same reason I assume other pesticides would not work either.

My personal experience with ich is this. I have it in my tank and have yet to go fallow. I have had more fish beat it then succumb to it....I do have a qt and a hospital tank. When I get a new fish, he first goes into qt just to get him acclimated and eating..... If I buy from a hobbyist and his fish look good, I usually put him right in as I believe that is the best chance of his survival. If I have a fish that really gets ich bad, I put him in the hospital tank with cupramine and once he is better, I put him back.

If all my DT fish died, I would definitely go fallow for about 30 days and qt all new fish coming in but wouldn't make myself crazy to do that with corals....

BTW I believe i do have good flow and employ filter socks yet ich still does exist in the tank.

My experience is limited compared to most but here it is

 

[shoelaceike]

Here's some quick info on copper and how to use is. I'm sure the other guys can fill you in on paraguard. I'm not too familiar with that med and humble doesn't have a quick reference like this one that I can post for you.

Copper: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly Uronema marinum

How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.35-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Coppersafe, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Coppersafe.

Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for all chemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have prolonged life cycles. Indeed, even 30 days may not be long enough in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

Therapeutic copper levels must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock starts all over again. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; those should not be used in the presence of copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 3-5 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hours recommended on the labels. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. Remove copper after 30 days by running activated carbon.

Pros - Readily available

Cons/Side Effects - Appetite suppression is a common side effect. If a fish stops eating, don’t add more copper until he resumes. If the fish is still not eating after 2-3 days, start doing water changes (lowering the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. Some species of fish, such as angels, puffers, lions and mandarins are notoriously difficult to treat with copper.

Question - why is the standard for fallow 76 days and copper only 30?

 

[melypr1985]

Question - why is the standard for fallow 76 days and copper only 30?

The 76 days is to be absolutely sure there is no ich left in the DT before introducing your fish back to it. That's the longest it has taken (in a study) for the tomonts to hatch and release the theronts.

You keep the fish in copper for 30 days because copper is a poison and prolonged exposure can be detrimental to the fish. 30 days will cover most strains of ich and this is why there is an observation period before reintroduction. It's also a good reason why TTM is the better way to go IMO.

 

[shoelaceike]

The 76 days is to be absolutely sure there is no ich left in the DT before introducing your fish back to it. That's the longest it has taken (in a study) for the tomonts to hatch and release the theronts.

You keep the fish in copper for 30 days because copper is a poison and prolonged exposure can be detrimental to the fish. 30 days will cover most strains of ich and this is why there is an observation period before reintroduction. It's also a good reason why TTM is the better way to go IMO.

Makes sense

 

[Humblefish]

@robert @Humblefish whats the difference between cupermine and paraguard? ive tried looking at the info on seachems website and ive tried googling it but all i can find on every answer is that

Cupramine is "ionic" copper, proven to treat ich & velvet.

The only thing useful (for SW fish) found in Paraguard is malachite green, a healing agent for wounds/ammonia burn. The other listed ingredients are ambiguous. However, if you go over to the FW boards a lot of people claim Paraguard is a "cure all" - which makes sense since FW ich (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) can be eradicated just by raising temp or salinity.

You keep the fish in copper for 30 days because copper is a poison and prolonged exposure can be detrimental to the fish. 30 days will cover most strains of ich and this is why there is an observation period before reintroduction. It's also a good reason why TTM is the better way to go IMO.

The optimal thing to do after 30 days of copper treatment is to transfer the fish to a non-medicated HT for further observation. DO NOT lower the Cu level in the treatment tank before doing this. The idea is to leave any tomonts behind in the treatment tank before they have a chance to rupture. Which is probably quite rare >30 days but it can happen.

 

[garra671]

Cupramine is "ionic" copper, proven to treat ich & velvet.

The only thing useful (for SW fish) found in Paraguard is malachite green, a healing agent for wounds/ammonia burn. The other listed ingredients are ambiguous. However, if you go over to the FW boards a lot of people claim Paraguard is a "cure all" - which makes sense since FW ich (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) can be eradicated just by raising temp or salinity.

The optimal thing to do after 30 days of copper treatment is to transfer the fish to a non-medicated HT for further observation. DO NOT lower the Cu level in the treatment tank before doing this. The idea is to leave any tomonts behind in the treatment tank before they have a chance to rupture. Which is probably quite rare >30 days but it can happen.

So now I need 2 QT lol

 

[Humblefish]

So now I need 2 QT lol

Or just keep your QTs small and basically do a tank transfer after 30 days.

 

[omykiss001]

Cupramine is "ionic" copper, proven to treat ich & velvet.

The only thing useful (for SW fish) found in Paraguard is malachite green, a healing agent for wounds/ammonia burn. The other listed ingredients are ambiguous. However, if you go over to the FW boards a lot of people claim Paraguard is a "cure all" - which makes sense since FW ich (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) can be eradicated just by raising temp or salinity.

The optimal thing to do after 30 days of copper treatment is to transfer the fish to a non-medicated HT for further observation. DO NOT lower the Cu level in the treatment tank before doing this. The idea is to leave any tomonts behind in the treatment tank before they have a chance to rupture. Which is probably quite rare >30 days but it can happen.

Looking at sea chem's web site paraguard also has most likely paraformaldehyde in it at 10%. They just state aldehydes, but knowing a bit of chemistry its most likely paraformaldehyde as it's a bit more stable and does not require methanol to stabilize it in solution. I had read formalin was/is the preferred treatment for brook, I might be mistaken on this item or there might be a better option.

 

[Humblefish]

I had read formalin was/is the preferred treatment for brook, I might be mistaken on this item or there might be a better option.

Formalin is the "standard" for treating brook and providing temporary relief for velvet. It can also be used to eliminate prazi resistant flukes. I've just never liked using formaldehyde, as it is a known carcinogen. To that end, I have been experimenting with acriflavine as a substitute. So far, it works great treating brook and providing temporary relief for velvet. Haven't tested it on any Monogeneans yet.

 

[omykiss001]

Formalin is the "standard" for treating brook and providing temporary relief for velvet. It can also be used to eliminate prazi resistant flukes. I've just never liked using formaldehyde, as it is a known carcinogen. To that end, I have been experimenting with acriflavine as a substitute. So far, it works great treating brook and providing temporary relief for velvet. Haven't tested it on any Monogeneans yet.

Totally agree about formalin. We consider it hazardous for our exposure, imagine taking a bath in the stuff like our finned friends would be exposed. Guess we just don't know if their eventual death was partially due to exposure to a known carcinogen.

 

[Humblefish]

Totally agree about formalin. We consider it hazardous for our exposure, imagine taking a bath in the stuff like our finned friends would be exposed. Guess we just don't know if their eventual death was partially due to exposure to a known carcinogen.

There is some anecdotal evidence that fish exposed to formalin don't live past 18-24 months. In a thread on another forum, I'm following the progress of a guy who is combining formalin baths with TTM. He administers at least one formalin bath in-between transfers in an effort to prophylactically address the threat of velvet/brook/uronema. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but his argument is that one 45 min formalin bath isn't enough exposure time to do any lasting damage. He says he will keep track of his fish to see if any die before 2 years. I suppose you could also do the same using acriflavine, although I've never tested it's effectiveness on uronema. In fact, the "bath" for either could just be done in the TTM aquarium 45 mins before the next transfer. Provided you haven't dosed an ammonia reducer.