14 day success rate

[Leko]

I'm reading about Copper Power and Cupramine. The medication duration fluctuates depending on the "expert".

It makes sense that a longer medication period is likely more effective (14 days vs 30) - but nothing is free- the price is greater stress from judicious use of poison.

I can tell you that Cupramine has failed me before but fish the fish tolerated it fine (yes I tested the water and brought up the dose as recommended and completed the full duration time).

Why is it that the BRS "expert" says 14 days of Copper Power? It's his job/career to know the life cycles of parasites and strains that could vary from the norm.

Who here has had -repeated - success using the 14 day copper power treatment?

 

[Miami Reef]

The 14 day copper treatment will only work if you transfer the fish into a parasite-free tank after the 14 days. You cannot lower the copper prior to the transfer.

 

[Tamberav]

I use it but I transfer the fish away to a new tank (that way you are moving it away from the tomonts), I doubt it is as good as doing 30 days. I would just rather limit the time in copper and observe the fish for an extended period instead.

 

[Fish Fan]

I'm reading about Copper Power and Cupramine. The medication duration fluctuates depending on the "expert".

It makes sense that a longer medication period is likely more effective (14 days vs 30) - but nothing is free- the price is greater stress from judicious use of poison.

I can tell you that Cupramine has failed me before but fish the fish tolerated it fine (yes I tested the water and brought up the dose as recommended and completed the full duration time).

Why is it that the BRS "expert" says 14 days of Copper Power? It's his job/career to know the life cycles of parasites and strains that could vary from the norm.

Who here has had -repeated - success using the 14 day copper power treatment?

I am *just* on the right side of a noob here, but I follow the Reef2Reef approved method to QT fish, found here:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

#reefmedic @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081 @ et. al.

I also asked here on R2R about the BRS method with Elliot from Marine Collectors, but I decided on the R2R approved method of quarantining fish (and I try to QT ALL livestock) because if I need help, I can post right here, and the afore mentioned experts (and others!) will respond.

Best of luck!

 

[vetteguy53081]

I'm reading about Copper Power and Cupramine. The medication duration fluctuates depending on the "expert".

It makes sense that a longer medication period is likely more effective (14 days vs 30) - but nothing is free- the price is greater stress from judicious use of poison.

I can tell you that Cupramine has failed me before but fish the fish tolerated it fine (yes I tested the water and brought up the dose as recommended and completed the full duration time).

Why is it that the BRS "expert" says 14 days of Copper Power? It's his job/career to know the life cycles of parasites and strains that could vary from the norm.

Who here has had -repeated - success using the 14 day copper power treatment?

14 days is a minimum and 30 days recommended. Obviously the longer the fish is exposed to coppersafe is the more effective treatment will be. Cupramine is a more potent form and too should be run a full 30 days at level .45 to .5 whereas coppersafe at 2.25 -2.5

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm reading about Copper Power and Cupramine. The medication duration fluctuates depending on the "expert".

It makes sense that a longer medication period is likely more effective (14 days vs 30) - but nothing is free- the price is greater stress from judicious use of poison.

I can tell you that Cupramine has failed me before but fish the fish tolerated it fine (yes I tested the water and brought up the dose as recommended and completed the full duration time).

Why is it that the BRS "expert" says 14 days of Copper Power? It's his job/career to know the life cycles of parasites and strains that could vary from the norm.

Who here has had -repeated - success using the 14 day copper power treatment?

The crux of the issue seems to be people’s inherent impatience! I’ve never understood that though, I actually like to have new fish in quarantine longer where I can view them more closely!

The issue with 14 day copper is that no copper product kills the resting tomont stage. Virtually all tomonts die out within 30 days, so that is much safer. Trouble is, ionic copper like Cupramine is more toxic and some fish don’t tolerate that long treatment, so I prefer coppersafe.

Here is something to watch for: if somebody tells you that 14 days copper is fine, but they also espouse that fallow tanks need to run 76 days, then you know they truly don’t understand the cryptocaryon disease process (grin).

 

[threebuoys]

I always follow the 30 day protocol. Why gamble with less? I've had no problems going the full 30 days. I use it with all new fish. I usually have no idea if the fish are carriers of ich/velvet or not. I would rather not find out, hence the full 30 days. If I were to go 14 days and later find my fish were infected, the effort to treat would be considerably more difficult. I want to avoid infecting my existing fish that have been around for years.

 

[LPS Bum]

I used to use Cupramine but now use Copper Power instead. I split the time frame and treat at full therapeutic for 21 days, so long as they don’t stop eating.

14 days is really rolling the dice but I’ve found some fish (like Angels and Acanthurus Tangs) don’t handle copper all that well. 30 days can be a long time in cases like that. 21 days is my compromise.

 

[Miami Reef]

The issue with 14 day copper is that no copper product kills the resting tomont stage. Virtually all tomonts die out within 30 days, so that is much safer.

The 14 day copper treatment works on the same premise of the tank transfer method.

Nobody claimed that copper kills the tomont stage.

Looking at the lifecycle for Cryptocaryon irritans, all of the trophonts on the fish would have fallen off by 14 days. With therapeutic copper in the water, the ich cannot reinfect the fish. Thus, transferring the fish directly from the copper tank after 14 days will result in a clean fish.

Copper only kills the theront stage. The 30 day treatment is simply waiting for the remaining tomont stage to die out.

Why wait for the remaining tomonts to die out when you can simply remove the fish?

You’d need to have 2 QT tanks for this, but it is a fine QT method for the people who want to decrease the exposure to copper.


I agree that the 30 day treatment is more easier and foolproof (you won’t need double the equipment, water, etc). But saying it’s less effective than the 14 day treatment inaccurate if you follow the protocol.

 

[Stevorino]

The spirit of that BRS video series was to do the most simple and straightforward QT process that would knock out ~80% of the issues with only ~20% of the work.

It's been a while since I watched that series, but I do remember them qualifying the process multiple times throughout.

I think they were just trying to come up with something the average reefer would actually consider doing, recognizing that most don't do any QT at all.

 

[Tamberav]

I used to use Cupramine but now use Copper Power instead. I split the time frame and treat at full therapeutic for 21 days, so long as they don’t stop eating.

14 days is really rolling the dice but I’ve found some fish (like Angels and Acanthurus Tangs) don’t handle copper all that well. 30 days can be a long time in cases like that. 21 days is my compromise.

Do you transfer the fish to a new clean tank after 21 days?

 

[LPS Bum]

Do you transfer the fish to a new clean tank after 21 days?

I suppose you could say that I do. The fish goes into one of my displays (reef or FOWLR) at that point.

Here’s the thing. You could say “why stop at 30 days? Why not do 45 days in copper? That would be even more effective!”

But copper is a poison and it’s always a balancing act between length of treatment and curing the disease by killing the patient. At some point you have to stop the treatment for the sake of the fish. figure a 21 day therapeutic copper treatment in a QT tank is a lot better than nothing. IME over the years, all of the free swimmers have been eliminated by that point.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The 14 day copper treatment works on the same premise of the tank transfer method.

Nobody claimed that copper kills the tomont stage.

Looking at the lifecycle for Cryptocaryon irritans, all of the trophonts on the fish would have fallen off by 14 days. With therapeutic copper in the water, the ich cannot reinfect the fish. Thus, transferring the fish directly from the copper tank after 14 days will result in a clean fish.

Copper only kills the theront stage. The 30 day treatment is simply waiting for the remaining tomont stage to die out.

Why wait for the remaining tomonts to die out when you can simply remove the fish?

You’d need to have 2 QT tanks for this, but it is a fine QT method for the people who want to decrease the exposure to copper.


I agree that the 30 day treatment is more easier and foolproof (you won’t need double the equipment, water, etc). But saying it’s less effective than the 14 day treatment inaccurate if you follow the protocol.

Except - some people like to think the Cryptocaryon life cycle is set in stone. It is actually kind of sloppy, and there is some evidence that tomonts can stick to the fish themselves. That's why TTM needs three transfers....

 

[Miami Reef]

Except - some people like to think the Cryptocaryon life cycle is set in stone. It is actually kind of sloppy

So why assume the tomonts will all hatch and die within 30 days? There are some documentation of tomonts lasting longer than 30 days in rare cases, just like there might be some evidence of them sticking to fish. I’m not sure I’ve seen the evidence, but I’d love to see it.

There are many professional QT vendors — not those mom-and-pops shop that sells asymptomatic fish, that successfully use the 14 day treatment method. I think it’s a viable method.

Anyway, I thought it might be nice to offer a different perspective on the other QT methods. There are many ways to skin and cat.

Edit: I also don’t really recommend a specific QT protocol. I just read advice from Jay and Bobby (Humble fish). You both base your advice on research, which I think is important. I did not invent the 14 day protocol.

 

[Fish Fan]

^We need a "like" button for "interesting" or dare I say,

 

[Tamberav]

With the 14 day, an observation period becomes more important.

I like hybrid TTM a lot too but it is a lot of salt and work. I know that isn't the go to method on this forum but I really found a lot of success using it. I don't think its perfect..

I think many that QT fish end up trying different ways and use what they found to work best for them. For some people, that is not QTing at all.