Copper for ICH slow ramp up. ICH not going.

[waltee1000]

I slowly ramped up copper power over 3 weeks as I have wrasses and copperband butterflies that are senstive to copper in display. I have finally reached 2.5 ppm but it has been at therapeutic level of copper above 1.5 ppm for 2 weeks. I still see ich on multiple fish as well as flashing and rubbing against the rocks. Did I give ich too much time to adjust to copper as well. At what point should I see ich dots go away?

 

[Jekyl]

You don't want to ramp up when using copper power or coppersafe. Until you reach the minimum 2.0 it is ineffective and could lose fish in the meantime.

Here is the detailed write up

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[threebuoys]

Our recommendation is to never ramp up slowly, and particularly not when an active case of ich is present.
The copper will not kill ich until it reaches the 2.25 ppm concentration we recommend.
So likely, you have multiple generations of the parasite, each a a different life cycle stage.

That's why advocate 30 days of treatment.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I slowly ramped up copper power over 3 weeks as I have wrasses and copperband butterflies that are senstive to copper in display. I have finally reached 2.5 ppm but it has been at therapeutic level of copper above 1.5 ppm for 2 weeks. I still see ich on multiple fish as well as flashing and rubbing against the rocks. Did I give ich too much time to adjust to copper as well. At what point should I see ich dots go away?

Picture show mucus cones likely begun with skin irritation and ich may habe been present and took hold of the fish. Therapuetic is 2.0 and not 1.5 which at 2.0 coppersafe begins to take effect. Ramping is not advised as it allows disease to take hold of a given fish and you want to get to treatment level within 24 hours. Once you reached the 2.5, clock begins meaning its 30 days from when you started at 2.5.
Also, leave display fishless for 6-8 weeks to allow protozoans to die off without a host fish

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I slowly ramped up copper power over 3 weeks as I have wrasses and copperband butterflies that are senstive to copper in display. I have finally reached 2.5 ppm but it has been at therapeutic level of copper above 1.5 ppm for 2 weeks. I still see ich on multiple fish as well as flashing and rubbing against the rocks. Did I give ich too much time to adjust to copper as well. At what point should I see ich dots go away?

Copper Power really doesn't hit therapeutic levels until around 2 ppm. Full dose is 2.25 to 2.5 ppm.

I see mucus plugs/cones, and there could easily be some underlying ich present.

Just by way of some history - slowly ramping up copper was something that needs to be done with ionic copper. The ramp up time is typically 48 to 72 hours. Somehow, this got misapplied to amine-chelated copper products and then the ramp up time got out of control, getting extended out way too far. Too many people are losing fish to disease during the ramp up extension. It irks me because this incorrect information seems to have a life of its own and just won't go away....

You do need to ensure accurate testing, so I advocate for adding a half dose, letting it mix well, test with a Hanna meter and then add a proportional dose to reach the full target. Then, let in run for 24 hours and retest to ensure the level didn't drop the first day.

 

[waltee1000]

Picture show mucus cones likely begun with skin irritation and ich may habe been present and took hold of the fish. Therapuetic is 2.0 and not 1.5 which at 2.0 coppersafe begins to take effect. Ramping is not advised as it allows disease to take hold of a given fish and you want to get to treatment level within 24 hours. Once you reached the 2.5, clock begins meaning its 30 days from when you started at 2.5.
Also, leave display fishless for 6-8 weeks to allow protozoans to die off without a host fish

@vetteguy53081 how do you identify mucus plugs from ich? Also, the fish are being treated in the display as it's a fish only system. In this case is it still 30 days of 2.5 ppm copper?

 

[waltee1000]

Copper Power really doesn't hit therapeutic levels until around 2 ppm. Full dose is 2.25 to 2.5 ppm.

I see mucus plugs/cones, and there could easily be some underlying ich present.

Just by way of some history - slowly ramping up copper was something that needs to be done with ionic copper. The ramp up time is typically 48 to 72 hours. Somehow, this got misapplied to amine-chelated copper products and then the ramp up time got out of control, getting extended out way too far. Too many people are losing fish to disease during the ramp up extension. It irks me because this incorrect information seems to have a life of its own and just won't go away....

You do need to ensure accurate testing, so I advocate for adding a half dose, letting it mix well, test with a Hanna meter and then add a proportional dose to reach the full target. Then, let in run for 24 hours and retest to ensure the level didn't drop the first day.

@Jay Hemdal how do you identify mucus plugs vs ich?. It just all looks like ich to me. Also, every post i read said to ramp copper slowly up for senstive fish but didn't provide the ionic vs cheated copper difference in doing so. Now that i am 2.5 ppm will i see the mucus plug go away with ich?

 

[vetteguy53081]

@vetteguy53081 how do you identify mucus plugs from ich? Also, the fish are being treated in the display as it's a fish only system. In this case is it still 30 days of 2.5 ppm copper?

They will be raised bump on the body often triggered with a skin irritation or reaction to copper or other conditions

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal how do you identify mucus plugs vs ich?. It just all looks like ich to me. Also, every post i read said to ramp copper slowly up for senstive fish but didn't provide the ionic vs cheated copper difference in doing so. Now that i am 2.5 ppm will i see the mucus plug go away with ich?

Mucus plugs are larger than ich, but it is common to see a mix of ich and mucus. Mucus plugs tend to be in the same location and less often on the fins. Ich is common on the fins and the spots tend to come and go and change location day to day.

Yeah, the slow ramp up idea is so firmly entrenched, everyone “knows it’s true”, but it’s so wrong.

One issue is that mucus plugs are caused by stressors -like ich, but also copper treatments.