Help - my wrasse keep dying

[DeanoL]

Hi,

Thanks for reading this and any advice you can give....i'm at a bit of a loss about my tank atm.

I have had 5 fish die on me, 4 of which were wrasse - not exactly sure what i'm doing wrong but want to try and get to the bottom of it before I lose any more. It's such a shame as I love the wrasse!

I've had a yellow coris wrasse, leopard wrasse, lineatus and lubbocks all die. Also a royal gramma.

Some info about the tank:

60 gallon, waterbox 90.3 tank with sump and redsea reefmat and skimmer.
Set up for about 5 months, did a fishless cycle so about 4 months with fish.
Live Rock and coral - although a couple coral have also died (think it was due to low calcium levels which I am now working on).

Tank has gone through a couple of dirty phases - first one was cloudy water, then hair algae, now a red slime which I am thinking is cyano.

Current Inhabitants:
- Pair of ocellaris clownfish (original fish)
- Pair of bangaii cardinalfish. At first one was picking on the other and chasing a lot, but they seem to be getting along much better now.
- 6 blue/green chromis
- firefish goby
- Scopas tang
- green coral goby
- 4 mollies (1 male sailfin, 3 female regular mollies)

Invertebrates/CUC:
- about 20 snails - mainly a mix of astraea, trochus and turbo, but also a couple strombus and nassarius.
- pair of coral banded shrimp
- pair of porcelain crabs
- about 5 peppermint shrimp


The first wrasse to die was the yellow coris - we had a power outage here which lasted for about 6 hours. The wrasse really struggled and was lying on it's side a lot. I tried to agitate water as best I could by myself and it seemed to recover, but did die within a week after that. I have since bought a couple of battery powered air pumpts to avoid this issue next time.

The royal gramma was very tentative and hid a lot - when it did come out it was chased by one of the chromis. I then saw it with its fins shredded a couple days later and then died a few days later.

The lineatus wrasse appeared to have some kind of epileptic fit - I saw it darting around the tank and it's body contorting and twistin in heaps of different ways like it was having full body spasms. It then lay on the sand with it's body quite curled up and then died shortly after. Could it possibly have been stung by one of the elegance corals? However, the green coral/clown body practically lives in the elegance coral, and I thought a sting wouldn't kill an almost full grown wrasse.

The leopard wrasse was in the tank for about 2 1/2 months and only died maybe 1-2 weeks ago. Looked healthy and would eat the frozen food (marine mix, mysis shrimp). Never saw anything pick on it. Also put live pods in the tank about 3 times. One day I saw it lie on it's side on the sand and I thought maybe it was dead, but then it got up and swam normally for the next couple of weeks. I then saw it curled up under an elegance coral and it was dead.

Last saturday, I bought a lubbocks wrasse and scopas tang. The wrasse was out and about swimming happily the first few days. Two mornings ago, i thought it was odd that it wasn't out and swimming yet and saw it under its rock where it sleeps and it looked like it was breathing weird, but still seemed to be in a bit of it's cocoon so thought i'd leave it to just wake up normally. I was out for the day, but when I came back that afternoon it couldn't be seen anywhere. Found it dead this morning with it's eyes missing.

The scopas tang is swimming around happily, but I have noticed some bigger white circles on its fins and smaller white dots on its body (they appear to come and go, sometimes there's quite a few, other times can't see any). I have started treating the tank with a parasite medication thinking it's ich. However, the scopas and lubbocks were sold to me from the LFS as TTM so guessing i must have it in my tank - could all the wrasse have died from ich?

Or are the chromis being pricks to all my fish and stressing them out? However, the clowns, bangaii's and firefish all seem ok. Can't see any torn fins or white dots on them.

I really love the look of so many wrasse so was keen to keep them, just don't want to risk any others until I know what's going on.

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly aprpeciated.

Thanks

 

[WallyTime7]

I would stop adding fish until you get your water tested, ICP or something.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

So, that sounds like quite a good amount of variation in the deaths. The shredded fins on the gramma could be indicative of aggression or disease/infection; the tang sounds like it probably does have ich (possibly with other issues too).

As a quick side-note here, if you want to treat ich effectively, you need either copper medication (chelated copper like Coppersafe or Copper Power at 2.25-2.5ppm for 30 days after the last ich trophonts disappear is recommended) or hyposalinity (drop your salinity to 1.009 and keep the tank at that salinity for 30 days after the last signs/symptoms of the disease disappear), neither of which are reef-safe. There is no effective, reef-safe treatment for ich at the moment (at least not one that I've heard of).

The wrasses don't sound like they died from ich (especially the lineatus wrasse), but I'm not sure what they did die from - I'd guess disease since breathing issues were noted a couple of times, but I wouldn't know which. Maybe one of the #fishmedic would know what the issues were there.

 

[DeanoL]

I would stop adding fish until you get your water tested, ICP or something.

Sorry I forgot to add the water levels in the first post. I have been testing the water every 2-3 days.

Current levels (measured yesterday):
Ammonia: 0.2 ( was 0 a couple days earlier, so think a spike from the dead lubbocks).
Nitrite: 0.2
Nitrate: 1
Ph: 8.2
Salinity 1.024
Phosphate: 0.10
Calcium: 420
Magnesium: 1360
Alkalinity: 9.5

Use Red Sea tests and Hanna ultra low phosphate test.

Ammonia has normally been 0, only slight spikes when something have died. Nitrates and Phosphates have generally been low, but I have just assumed that's because the algae has been consuming them...

Nitrite is always around the 0.1/0.2 colour no matter how many water changes I do.

Calcium was very low (around 300) but now i'm supplementing it has been around the 400-440 each time ive tested.

 

[DeanoL]

So, that sounds like quite a good amount of variation in the deaths. The shredded fins on the gramma could be indicative of aggression or disease/infection; the tang sounds like it probably does have ich (possibly with other issues too).

As a quick side-note here, if you want to treat ich effectively, you need either copper medication (chelated copper like Coppersafe or Copper Power at 2.25-2.5ppm for 30 days after the last ich trophonts disappear is recommended) or hyposalinity (drop your salinity to 1.009 and keep the tank at that salinity for 30 days after the last signs/symptoms of the disease disappear), neither of which are reef-safe. There is no effective, reef-safe treatment for ich at the moment (at least not one that I've heard of).

The wrasses don't sound like they died from ich (especially the lineatus wrasse), but I'm not sure what they did die from - I'd guess disease since breathing issues were noted a couple of times, but I wouldn't know which. Maybe one of the #fishmedic would know what the issues were there.

Hi,

Thankyou so much for the reply, i appreciate you taking the time to read it - yes all deaths have been a bit different so trying to figure out if it's just a lot of bad luck or some common underlying theme - like maybe stress from chromis? or water quality etc?

In terms of the ich, I am using 'Reef Revolution Parasite Treatment'. Made in Australia, says it containts peroxide salts. Says to dose twice a day for 14 days and that it is reef safe. I did this peviously as recommended by LFS, but if you are right with 30 days for ich, then maybe I needed to continue for longer than I did. I have started it again a few days ago so will keep doing it for a month.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

In terms of the ich, I am using 'Reef Revolution Parasite Treatment'. Made in Australia, says it containts peroxide salts. Says to dose twice a day for 14 days and that it is reef safe.

I wouldn't plan on that medication eliminating ich for you - it might, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd guess you'd need to run copper/hypo:

The Polyp Lab medic is a peroxide salt. That compound may have some benefit in treating ich, but they throttle back on the dose to make it "reef safe" and that also makes it "ich safe". I'm not suggesting it be dosed higher, just that there is a history of this product not working well against parasites.

6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Regardless, what are the dimensions of your tank, and do you have any pics of the fish and your setup?

 

[Totroc3]

I would get a quarantine tank set up and treat the fish you currently have. Your display tank can then have a chance to mature a bit so you won’t have any detectable levels of ammonia or nitrite. After you put your treated fish back in the display you can quarantine every new fish so you avoid issues like this in your display tank.

 

[DeanoL]

I wouldn't plan on that medication eliminating ich for you - it might, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd guess you'd need to run copper/hypo:


Regardless, what are the dimensions of your tank, and do you have any pics of the fish and your setup?

The LFS told me to double the medication. So, 2 scoops per 100L twice a day.

The tank is 3ft long. Dimensions are:

Here's a few pics of the tank - you can see the cyano which i'm slowly manually removing. Then a pic of the tang but doesn't appear to have any small white dots on it atm.

 

[MDReefguy]

Sounds you’ve had deaths from power failures, aggression, and maybe a neurological disease with one of the wrasses. Leopards can be finicky, so maybe your tank wasn’t ready. Now you also likely have ich.

You are also overstocked for a 60 gallon. Trade in the tang, don’t add anything for a while, and see how it goes. Then maybe add 1 wrasse and call it a day.

Fish additions that are successful are a combo of planning and luck. But stick too many in a glass box and things go wrong every time.

Best of luck, and take your time!

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I would say that 17 fish (one being a tang) in a 60 gallon in only 4 months is very overstocked very fast, too fast, your tank was not able to adjust to ever increasing bioload.

Scopas tang recommended tank size is 125 gallons. We all cheat a little, but cutting the recommended tank size in half is cruel to the fish.

Very few hiding spots in the rockwork, definately not enough hiding spots to support 17 fish.

I don't see any powerheads in the tank, looks like a lack of flow. If there is no skimmer, then lack of oxygen is one of the issue's.

Basically just way too overstocked too fast. Get a bigger tank or get less fish, and go slower.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi,

Thanks for reading this and any advice you can give....i'm at a bit of a loss about my tank atm.

I have had 5 fish die on me, 4 of which were wrasse - not exactly sure what i'm doing wrong but want to try and get to the bottom of it before I lose any more. It's such a shame as I love the wrasse!

I've had a yellow coris wrasse, leopard wrasse, lineatus and lubbocks all die. Also a royal gramma.

Some info about the tank:

60 gallon, waterbox 90.3 tank with sump and redsea reefmat and skimmer.
Set up for about 5 months, did a fishless cycle so about 4 months with fish.
Live Rock and coral - although a couple coral have also died (think it was due to low calcium levels which I am now working on).

Tank has gone through a couple of dirty phases - first one was cloudy water, then hair algae, now a red slime which I am thinking is cyano.

Current Inhabitants:
- Pair of ocellaris clownfish (original fish)
- Pair of bangaii cardinalfish. At first one was picking on the other and chasing a lot, but they seem to be getting along much better now.
- 6 blue/green chromis
- firefish goby
- Scopas tang
- green coral goby
- 4 mollies (1 male sailfin, 3 female regular mollies)

Invertebrates/CUC:
- about 20 snails - mainly a mix of astraea, trochus and turbo, but also a couple strombus and nassarius.
- pair of coral banded shrimp
- pair of porcelain crabs
- about 5 peppermint shrimp


The first wrasse to die was the yellow coris - we had a power outage here which lasted for about 6 hours. The wrasse really struggled and was lying on it's side a lot. I tried to agitate water as best I could by myself and it seemed to recover, but did die within a week after that. I have since bought a couple of battery powered air pumpts to avoid this issue next time.

The royal gramma was very tentative and hid a lot - when it did come out it was chased by one of the chromis. I then saw it with its fins shredded a couple days later and then died a few days later.

The lineatus wrasse appeared to have some kind of epileptic fit - I saw it darting around the tank and it's body contorting and twistin in heaps of different ways like it was having full body spasms. It then lay on the sand with it's body quite curled up and then died shortly after. Could it possibly have been stung by one of the elegance corals? However, the green coral/clown body practically lives in the elegance coral, and I thought a sting wouldn't kill an almost full grown wrasse.

The leopard wrasse was in the tank for about 2 1/2 months and only died maybe 1-2 weeks ago. Looked healthy and would eat the frozen food (marine mix, mysis shrimp). Never saw anything pick on it. Also put live pods in the tank about 3 times. One day I saw it lie on it's side on the sand and I thought maybe it was dead, but then it got up and swam normally for the next couple of weeks. I then saw it curled up under an elegance coral and it was dead.

Last saturday, I bought a lubbocks wrasse and scopas tang. The wrasse was out and about swimming happily the first few days. Two mornings ago, i thought it was odd that it wasn't out and swimming yet and saw it under its rock where it sleeps and it looked like it was breathing weird, but still seemed to be in a bit of it's cocoon so thought i'd leave it to just wake up normally. I was out for the day, but when I came back that afternoon it couldn't be seen anywhere. Found it dead this morning with it's eyes missing.

The scopas tang is swimming around happily, but I have noticed some bigger white circles on its fins and smaller white dots on its body (they appear to come and go, sometimes there's quite a few, other times can't see any). I have started treating the tank with a parasite medication thinking it's ich. However, the scopas and lubbocks were sold to me from the LFS as TTM so guessing i must have it in my tank - could all the wrasse have died from ich?

Or are the chromis being pricks to all my fish and stressing them out? However, the clowns, bangaii's and firefish all seem ok. Can't see any torn fins or white dots on them.

I really love the look of so many wrasse so was keen to keep them, just don't want to risk any others until I know what's going on.

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly aprpeciated.

Thanks

Given the timeline and the varying symptoms, it is probable that the wrasse are dying from different issues. The clowns, cardinals and chromis living through all of this rules out water quality, ich or velvet, as they would have been affected also.
Wrasse do have higher oxygen requirements, so make sure the tank has good aeration/surface agitation.
There are also flukes that can affect some species over others.
Your tank does look overcrowded.
Finally, at least one of your wrasse seems to have had this disease: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/unknown-neurological-wrasse-disease-unwd.901856/

Jay

 

[DeanoL]

I would say that 17 fish (one being a tang) in a 60 gallon in only 4 months is very overstocked very fast, too fast, your tank was not able to adjust to ever increasing bioload.

Scopas tang recommended tank size is 125 gallons. We all cheat a little, but cutting the recommended tank size in half is cruel to the fish.

Very few hiding spots in the rockwork, definately not enough hiding spots to support 17 fish.

I don't see any powerheads in the tank, looks like a lack of flow. If there is no skimmer, then lack of oxygen is one of the issue's.

Basically just way too overstocked too fast. Get a bigger tank or get less fish, and go slower.

Thanks for your input. I did only add a few fish at a time and waited a fortnight between them, but can accept that being overstocked could be a contributing factor.

What I don't understand though is why have the nitrates not been high if I am overstocked?

The LFS have a Scopas tang in a 3 foot tank and said that it would take a few years before it might be too big for my tank - they would be happy to take it back at that stage if needed.

I can rearrange the rockwork or get additional rocks if needed.

I do have a powerhead/wavemaker in the tank and also have a Red Sea skimmer and reefmat in the sump.

I am definitely not planning on adding any fish at the moment, and want to figure out what is happening before I consider adding any more down the track - hence all the questions at the moment. I really do like some wrasse so keen to get some in the future. If that means I need to rehome some of the chromis (if their aggression if contributing to any stress or other issues) or mollies (they were mainly there to assist with algae control) to make room them I would consider that.

 

[DeanoL]

Given the timeline and the varying symptoms, it is probable that the wrasse are dying from different issues. The clowns, cardinals and chromis living through all of this rules out water quality, ich or velvet, as they would have been affected also.
Wrasse do have higher oxygen requirements, so make sure the tank has good aeration/surface agitation.
There are also flukes that can affect some species over others.
Your tank does look overcrowded.
Finally, at least one of your wrasse seems to have had this disease: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/unknown-neurological-wrasse-disease-unwd.901856/

Jay

Thanks for your opinon - yes, the fact that the chromis, clowns and cardinals are all OK have made me question whether the water quality was an issue.

I do have a wavemaker which I have placed fairly high up the tank to ensure there is surface agitation - didn't realise that wrasse had higher oxygen requirements so that is good to know and makes the death of the yellow coris wrasse make more sense after the power outage. Good news - the 2 battery operated air pumps arrived today so I am set should we have another power outage.

Thanks for the link about the neurological disease - it honestly was the most random thing I have seen with a fish. I'm new to reef tanks, but have had freshwater for over 10 years and never seen a fish have full body spasms and dart around like the lineatus did.

 

[TheNoLegFisherMan]

Hi,

Thanks for reading this and any advice you can give....i'm at a bit of a loss about my tank atm.

I have had 5 fish die on me, 4 of which were wrasse - not exactly sure what i'm doing wrong but want to try and get to the bottom of it before I lose any more. It's such a shame as I love the wrasse!

I've had a yellow coris wrasse, leopard wrasse, lineatus and lubbocks all die. Also a royal gramma.

Some info about the tank:

60 gallon, waterbox 90.3 tank with sump and redsea reefmat and skimmer.
Set up for about 5 months, did a fishless cycle so about 4 months with fish.
Live Rock and coral - although a couple coral have also died (think it was due to low calcium levels which I am now working on).

Tank has gone through a couple of dirty phases - first one was cloudy water, then hair algae, now a red slime which I am thinking is cyano.

Current Inhabitants:
- Pair of ocellaris clownfish (original fish)
- Pair of bangaii cardinalfish. At first one was picking on the other and chasing a lot, but they seem to be getting along much better now.
- 6 blue/green chromis
- firefish goby
- Scopas tang
- green coral goby
- 4 mollies (1 male sailfin, 3 female regular mollies)

Invertebrates/CUC:
- about 20 snails - mainly a mix of astraea, trochus and turbo, but also a couple strombus and nassarius.
- pair of coral banded shrimp
- pair of porcelain crabs
- about 5 peppermint shrimp


The first wrasse to die was the yellow coris - we had a power outage here which lasted for about 6 hours. The wrasse really struggled and was lying on it's side a lot. I tried to agitate water as best I could by myself and it seemed to recover, but did die within a week after that. I have since bought a couple of battery powered air pumpts to avoid this issue next time.

The royal gramma was very tentative and hid a lot - when it did come out it was chased by one of the chromis. I then saw it with its fins shredded a couple days later and then died a few days later.

The lineatus wrasse appeared to have some kind of epileptic fit - I saw it darting around the tank and it's body contorting and twistin in heaps of different ways like it was having full body spasms. It then lay on the sand with it's body quite curled up and then died shortly after. Could it possibly have been stung by one of the elegance corals? However, the green coral/clown body practically lives in the elegance coral, and I thought a sting wouldn't kill an almost full grown wrasse.

The leopard wrasse was in the tank for about 2 1/2 months and only died maybe 1-2 weeks ago. Looked healthy and would eat the frozen food (marine mix, mysis shrimp). Never saw anything pick on it. Also put live pods in the tank about 3 times. One day I saw it lie on it's side on the sand and I thought maybe it was dead, but then it got up and swam normally for the next couple of weeks. I then saw it curled up under an elegance coral and it was dead.

Last saturday, I bought a lubbocks wrasse and scopas tang. The wrasse was out and about swimming happily the first few days. Two mornings ago, i thought it was odd that it wasn't out and swimming yet and saw it under its rock where it sleeps and it looked like it was breathing weird, but still seemed to be in a bit of it's cocoon so thought i'd leave it to just wake up normally. I was out for the day, but when I came back that afternoon it couldn't be seen anywhere. Found it dead this morning with it's eyes missing.

The scopas tang is swimming around happily, but I have noticed some bigger white circles on its fins and smaller white dots on its body (they appear to come and go, sometimes there's quite a few, other times can't see any). I have started treating the tank with a parasite medication thinking it's ich. However, the scopas and lubbocks were sold to me from the LFS as TTM so guessing i must have it in my tank - could all the wrasse have died from ich?

Or are the chromis being pricks to all my fish and stressing them out? However, the clowns, bangaii's and firefish all seem ok. Can't see any torn fins or white dots on them.

I really love the look of so many wrasse so was keen to keep them, just don't want to risk any others until I know what's going on.

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly aprpeciated.

Thanks

what I've noticed that helps my wrasse live longer healthier lives is after they're done feeding, you burp them. the technique i've been using for many years now is you light palm them in the water and rub the underneath of their belly with slight pressuer to relieve the gas inside of them.

hope this helps! ~Sharktooth John

 

[Jay Hemdal]

what I've noticed that helps my wrasse live longer healthier lives is after they're done feeding, you burp them. the technique i've been using for many years now is you light palm them in the water and rub the underneath of their belly with slight pressuer to relieve the gas inside of them.

hope this helps! ~Sharktooth John

Welcome to Reef2Reef.

While that may have worked for you, I cannot recommend routine capture and handling of fish to do that.

Jay

 

[DeanoL]

what I've noticed that helps my wrasse live longer healthier lives is after they're done feeding, you burp them. the technique i've been using for many years now is you light palm them in the water and rub the underneath of their belly with slight pressuer to relieve the gas inside of them.

hope this helps! ~Sharktooth John

Thanks for the input, however, it's honestly hard to know whether you are being serious or taking the tick right now lol. I am not going to try and do this as even if it does work for you, i think it would stress them too much constantly being chased by a net and caught.

 

[Flex714]

Any time I medicate the main tank, my experience has been a death sentence to everything except for the pest. Anytime I removed a fish to medicate it's a death sentence. I don't medicate anymore, I just run ozone(or uv) and 3 cleaner shrimps. Keep in mind
stress kills fish
You dropping a new fish in an established tank all the fish will get stress
Fish are wild and aren't used to the food we give them so we need to get them use to it in a separate tank. Once they look fatter you can move them to the MD inside a box.

 

[OrionN]

what I've noticed that helps my wrasse live longer healthier lives is after they're done feeding, you burp them. the technique i've been using for many years now is you light palm them in the water and rub the underneath of their belly with slight pressuer to relieve the gas inside of them.

hope this helps! ~Sharktooth John

To catch a wrasse out of the tank and handle them will stress them to no end. This is the craziest recommendation I ever heard.
@DeanoL
Just say no to this recommendation.
It seems to me, your tank is a bit over stock and the water, tank conditions poor so your fish died from diseases. I would not add any more fish, looking to get the Scopa tang our because if he lives, he will surely outgrow the quickly. Decrease feeding, remove any fish you don't like to decrease load on the tank. Do water changes with good water, 25% to 50% weekly until things stable out. Good luck.