Just received ICP results - I'm discouraged and looking for insight

[Rappa]

I use IO Reef Crystals and have for many years. Mainly because its whats available from my LFS

Water changes are about 1 every 3-4 months so probably not often enough. There are many folks on here who do them far less often than that and I don't have a great setup for that so I slack there. Good points about pre-measuring and prepping but for me its carrying 10 five gallon buckets up and down the basement stairs that becomes difficult.

Obviously, I need to do more - that's low-hanging fruit

At the very least, you can run 1/4" R/O tubing from the basement to the tank area, with a shutoff valve at the tank. I used to do this with my old tank. I ran it across the basement and drilled a tiny hole in the floor under my stand. It also helped with top-off. I would do my water changes with an 18 gallon Rubbermaid container. Fill container with R/O at the tank, mix in salt, let it mix with small powerhead, remove old water, and pump or dump the new water. It's not a perfect method, but it alleviates having to carry water up the stairs. Running that small tubing is super easy in an unfinished basement, but can also be done with a finished basement, with an electrical snake and a little bit of handy work.

 

[jkobel]

I too let my 6 stage RODI go longer than it should before changing all the filters and DI resin beds, mine was probably 6 months past when they should have been changed. I did an ICP test that showed low on some minor trace elements, Boron, Potassium, Strontium, Iodine, but more concerning was a high tin level. I found a magnet for my ATO optical sensor that was corroding. After a large water change, conservative (one time only) dosing of the corrective doses to get the trace elements back inline, and removing the magnet, things quickly stabilized.
Your source water must be very good if you've let your RODI unit go 3 years without changing the media and you have such a clean ICP report card on your RO sample.
The fact that you've have livestock mortality (assuming your are acclimating them properly), especially quickly on inverts, you may want to consider doing another ICP test from another lab to just compare results. At face value, I'd say you have some sort of contamination or something way out of range that you're not seeing on your ICP test.
If you are confident in the attached ICP results, then focus on getting the N03 and P04 within an acceptable range, stabilize your pH and your Alk, and you should be able to keep some test acros alive and eventually growing. Good luck.

good insight, thank you. to be clear, this RO sample was taken AFTER I replaced my RODI media. I'm sure that it was a different story a month ago before I changed it.

Another st of lab results is not a bad idea at all. thx

 

[Formulator]

I don’t see any glaring issues with these results. I struggled with acros for a long time and was similarly frustrated by seemingly good parameters. Eventually what I realized was that my definition of “stability” was too loose to support acros. They do not tolerate even small swings in alkalinity, especially if they are frequent. My manual alkalinity dosing 3x per week was not cutting it as I was swinging about 0.5 dkh regularly. When I switched to a dosing pump and started keeping my Alk stable within +/- 0.1-0.2 dkh, suddenly I was able to keep acros alive.

 

[RastaReefarian]

Highly recommend the Tropic Marin hydrometer. Buy a 500ml plastic cylinder online (don't put it directly in the tank)

High Precision Hydrometer

Ensure that your equipment is reading correctly and your aquarium is at the right salinity with Tropic Marin's High Precision Hydrometer. Many tank inhabitants are sensitive even to minor changes of the water conditions. Unfortunately as we've all experienced, salinity reading equipment as...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Amazon product

What's the reason this can't be placed directly in the tank?

 

[Formulator]

What's the reason this can't be placed directly in the tank?

It has mercury in it, so if it breaks, you poison the tank.

 

[jkobel]

I don’t see any glaring issues with these results. I struggled with acros for a long time and was similarly frustrated by seemingly good parameters. Eventually what I realized was that my definition of “stability” was too loose to support acros. They do not tolerate even small swings in alkalinity, especially if they are frequent. My manual alkalinity dosing 3x per week was not cutting it as I was swinging about 0.5 dkh regularly. When I switched to a dosing pump and started keeping my Alk stable within +/- 0.1-0.2 dkh, suddenly I was able to keep acros alive.

Interesting, this is my Alk graph for the last 7 days. I would have considered his "stable" until reading your post as it's fairly regular. I do swing up to .4 dkh per day. is this uncommon? Is it bad?

 

[RastaReefarian]

It has mercury in it, so if it breaks, you poison the tank.

Thanks

 

[UMALUM]

Interesting, this is my Alk graph for the last 7 days. I would have considered his "stable" until reading your post as it's fairly regular. I do swing up to .4 dkh per day. is this uncommon? Is it bad?

I'm not sure who exactly came up with it but to the best of my knowledge there's no proven data that alk swings will cause SDR in acropora. Common sense tells us that a proper balance of all aspects is what we should strive for and that true stability can never be obtained with an ever evolving entity. My alk swings from 10.3 to 9.3 daily and has for 8 months now. Furthermore two of my sps vendors run 8 and their frags often get dumped into 9.9 when they get here. Don't be scared of the big bad alk boogeyman.

 

[taricha]

K is way too high, but nothing in the report could possibly explain this.

Over the last year, I have noticed that virtually all shrimp/crabs/snails I put in die within hours, sometimes virtually instantly.

After losing another round of shrimp in less than 2 hours (I have been trying to add Peppermint shrimp to combat a very aggressive outbreak of Aptasia) I decided enough was enough and I ordered an ICP test from Fauna Marin last week.

Your water is clearly toxic to these organisms on some measure not in the ICP report, or is different enough to cause shock that they do not recover from.

possibilities such as not dechlorinating totally or temp or salinity highly different from the LFS water should be considered.
It was good to do an ICP report, but the cause of the rapid toxicity isn't in the report.

 

[jkobel]

Highly recommend the Tropic Marin hydrometer. Buy a 500ml plastic cylinder online (don't put it directly in the tank)

High Precision Hydrometer

Ensure that your equipment is reading correctly and your aquarium is at the right salinity with Tropic Marin's High Precision Hydrometer. Many tank inhabitants are sensitive even to minor changes of the water conditions. Unfortunately as we've all experienced, salinity reading equipment as...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Amazon product

do you have a specific graduated cylinder you like? it's hard to know what the dimensions of the hydrometer are so not sure if it will fit in the cylinder and if the cylinder will be clear enough to see the hydrometer

 

[jkobel]

K is way too high, but nothing in the report could possibly explain this.




Your water is clearly toxic to these organisms on some measure not in the ICP report, or is different enough to cause shock that they do not recover from.

possibilities such as not dechlorinating totally or temp or salinity highly different from the LFS water should be considered.
It was good to do an ICP report, but the cause of the rapid toxicity isn't in the report.

its interesting, this is what i was feeling and looking for others insights here.

Acclimation was:

turn off light
float bag for 20 mins in DT
move inhabitants to a bucket
test LFS water salinity - 1.024
test my salinity - 1.025
set up a drip and let the bucket come up to my salinity (2.25 hours was what it took)
move then to the tank

That seemed to be an adequate amount of time to change salinity by .001

 

[RoanokeReef]

do you have a specific graduated cylinder you like? it's hard to know what the dimensions of the hydrometer are so not sure if it will fit in the cylinder and if the cylinder will be clear enough to see the hydrometer

This is what I use. Amazon product

 

[Coinzmans Reef]

You are now cleaning tank with vinegar, what were you using before?

My Apex died by the time I got a new one up and running the Alk was 5.5 never lost a coral, my swings are like yours.

I don't acclimate inverts, float 20 min and drop in tank never an issue. I dip all corals in whatever I have for five or ten minutes and drop in tank.

Sounds like there is something else going on outside contaminant ?

Ever check your voltage ?

 

[Charles Zinn]

K is way too high, but nothing in the report could possibly explain this.




Your water is clearly toxic to these organisms on some measure not in the ICP report, or is different enough to cause shock that they do not recover from.

possibilities such as not dechlorinating totally or temp or salinity highly different from the LFS water should be considered.
It was good to do an ICP report, but the cause of the rapid toxicity isn't in the report.

you want to have potassium above 400 but 20- to 30 pts below calcium. I didn't see what ph was. I recently dropped nitrate(o to 5) and phosphates to( .2 to ,25) quit feeding as much nori no pellets amD WENT TO 100 MICRON SOCKS. hQAVE BEEN FEEDING 3 TO UNITS OF LIVE BRINE AND 4 TO 5 CUBES A DAY. lIVE BRINE while have phosphate but not as much as the nori.

 

[Charles Zinn]

Link to Analysis if this is easier to consume https://lab.faunamarin.de/en/share/analysis/171054

Have you tried a co2 scrubber to your skimmer and di I read you have a refugium? if yes run the light on it a little longer to bring up ph. That was first time looking at a Fauna Marin ICP. Looks harder to read than Reef-Labs

 

[SpyC]

Thanks

I would also think the water movement in the tank could throw off readings if it is floating around and not staying still

 

[Badblackdog]

I don't have that but chloramine doesn't seem to show up on the ICP results but chloride seems low. Do I need to remove Chloramines?

Sorry for my ignorance, I don't have a lot of experience with that one.

Yes, chloramine is a mix of chlorine and ammonia. It will make it through a standard 4 stage RODI. It is used in municipal water treatment. I had to buy a separate chloramine stage for my RODI setup.

 

[Nate Chalk]

Looking for input and help orienting on these results.

First - the context.
My tank is 4.5 years old. LPS and Monti's grow fine and seem to do well. 95% of all acro's I put in die in 6 weeks or less, typically RTN, I have gotten them from all reputable sources. I always attributed it to shipping toxicity or bad luck. Fish have been hit or miss, I have 4 tangs and 2 clowns now that have been doing well for 2+ years

Over the last year, I have noticed that virtually all shrimp/crabs/snails I put in die within hours, sometimes virtually instantly. Over the last few months, I have decided to figure this out and have identified a couple of problems that I have corrected thinking I solved the issues.

Things I have changed
1. The sump was filthy with detritus (like .5-.75 inch thick of food/waste on bottom from ignoring the socks) so I emptied and cleaned the sump and replaced socks with reefmat.
2. I thought my lighting was to intense and got a Par meeter and discovered if was roughly half as intense as it should be so I corrected over a month and brought the Par level at 3 inches below the surface to 400.
3. I started tracking nitrates and phosphates again (had always been 0/0 for 3+ years) and now nitrates were measuring 4.22 and phos.88 over multiple readings with Hanna checkers and confined the reagents were within date. Nitrates seemed fine but obviously, Phosphates were way too high so I started water changes and began researching phosphate removers.
4. I realized that the filter media in my RODI unit was not just exhausted but probably 3 years old and just neglected. I have a 4-stage 150gal/day unit from BRS. My tank is about 140 total volume and I go thru about 30 gals in 2 weeks of RODI. I replaced all the media.
5. Checked my feeding schedule. I feed 5 frozen cubes per day (mysis/brine/squid) and 1 4x4 sheet nori per day. I don't believe this is overfeeding as it is always gone in less than 5 minutes
6. This week I started running PhosGuard

Along the way I had a recent Cyano outbreak that was quite bad and lasted about a month, many corals were lost but I ultimately beat it with N2O2 dosing.

After losing another round of shrimp in less than 2 hours (I have been trying to add Peppermint shrimp to combat a very aggressive outbreak of Aptasia) I decided enough was enough and I ordered an ICP test from Fauna Marin last week. There seem to be 4 main options right now in the market that most people are using, I chose FM because they also test your RODI water. Because of my recent RODI issues, I wanted to confirm that we are good there.

The problem
I received the results today and I'm blown away. It seems my Hanna checkers are not accurate in some cases, my refractometer which I calibrate every time I use it with RO seems to be off. So many levels of so many nutrients/trace/macro/ect. all seem to need attention. To be honest I'm slightly overwhelmed with where to start.

The ask
I'm hoping folks here have a minute to look at these results and share input from experience looking at these and help me cut thru the noise and figure out where to start.

Other thoughts
1. Obviously, start some water changes today - that's a no-brainer.
2. it calls for all sorts of filter media - what brands and where to prioritize, I can't do this all at once - or can I and how?
3. come trace elements are off the charts but I'm not dosing any trace right now (I have in the past but stopped 6 months ago when I had issues keeping calcium stable
4. The only thing I have added recently besides two-part from BRS is Aptasia-X as I have been fighting this outbreak. Can you use too much?
5. I have switched to using vinegar to clean the tank to make sure pollutants are not entering - no clue if that is relevant here.




Thanks in advance for any constructive thoughts. I truly appreciate this community and need help at this point. If there is a better format to post the results please advise.

Am I reading those nutrients right? Seems very high. Calcium low. The alk I can't make heads or tails of.


Outside of that perhaps running a bacteria panel . Maybe you have bacteria that kill acros.

Thinking basics and outside of box . My resume

 

[Hans-Werner]

There are two or three major problems, the first two may be responsible for dead snails and shrimps:

iodine high, potassium high and less problematic nitrate high.

The very high iodine and potassium are strange.

 

[Dburr1014]

Looking for input and help orienting on these results.

First - the context.
My tank is 4.5 years old. LPS and Monti's grow fine and seem to do well. 95% of all acro's I put in die in 6 weeks or less, typically RTN, I have gotten them from all reputable sources. I always attributed it to shipping toxicity or bad luck. Fish have been hit or miss, I have 4 tangs and 2 clowns now that have been doing well for 2+ years

Over the last year, I have noticed that virtually all shrimp/crabs/snails I put in die within hours, sometimes virtually instantly. Over the last few months, I have decided to figure this out and have identified a couple of problems that I have corrected thinking I solved the issues.

Things I have changed
1. The sump was filthy with detritus (like .5-.75 inch thick of food/waste on bottom from ignoring the socks) so I emptied and cleaned the sump and replaced socks with reefmat.

This is a good start.

2. I thought my lighting was to intense and got a Par meeter and discovered if was roughly half as intense as it should be so I corrected over a month and brought the Par level at 3 inches below the surface to 400.

This will help the acro.

3. I started tracking nitrates and phosphates again (had always been 0/0 for 3+ years) and now nitrates were measuring 4.22 and phos.88 over multiple readings with Hanna checkers and confined the reagents were within date. Nitrates seemed fine but obviously, Phosphates were way too high so I started water changes and began researching phosphate removers.

These closely align with the icp.
Just remember, they are hobby grade.

4. I realized that the filter media in my RODI unit was not just exhausted but probably 3 years old and just neglected. I have a 4-stage 150gal/day unit from BRS. My tank is about 140 total volume and I go thru about 30 gals in 2 weeks of RODI. I replaced all the media.

Are you on a well or city? Apologies if you said it already, I didn't s it in all the replies.
What is the TDS before/after the membrane? Did you change that also?

5. Checked my feeding schedule. I feed 5 frozen cubes per day (mysis/brine/squid) and 1 4x4 sheet nori per day. I don't believe this is overfeeding as it is always gone in less than 5 minutes

Sounds right.

6. This week I started running PhosGuard

Don't bring PO4 down to fast. Slow and steady wins the race.

Along the way I had a recent Cyano outbreak that was quite bad and lasted about a month, many corals were lost but I ultimately beat it with N2O2 dosing.

After losing another round of shrimp in less than 2 hours (I have been trying to add Peppermint shrimp to combat a very aggressive outbreak of Aptasia) I decided enough was enough and I ordered an ICP test from Fauna Marin last week.

That is very fast to lose shrimp!

There seem to be 4 main options right now in the market that most people are using, I chose FM because they also test your RODI water. Because of my recent RODI issues, I wanted to confirm that we are good there.

The problem
I received the results today and I'm blown away. It seems my Hanna checkers are not accurate in some cases, my refractometer which I calibrate every time I use it with RO seems to be off.

RHF has a couple papers he wrote.
1) why and how refractometers can be off and why you shouldn't use RO to calibrate. It's an eye opener to read.
2) how to make a standard with plain old table salt.
I will link them for you.

So many levels of so many nutrients/trace/macro/ect. all seem to need attention. To be honest I'm slightly overwhelmed with where to start.

The ask
I'm hoping folks here have a minute to look at these results and share input from experience looking at these and help me cut thru the noise and figure out where to start.

I have never done an ICP. I would know what to tell you there but, the easiest way to align the tank again is water changes. I know it's a pain and why. I read the whole thread. You can get a peristaltic pump that will do that head but it's slow. You can get a jeboa pump, they are pretty cheap also and will be way faster. I would get some rubbermaid garbage cans dedicated for WC's.
2 or 3 20% WC's will do the tank good.

Other thoughts
1. Obviously, start some water changes today - that's a no-brainer.

Yup.

2. it calls for all sorts of filter media - what brands and where to prioritize, I can't do this all at once - or can I and how?

Roller mat you mentioned and the rodi setup.

3. come trace elements are off the charts but I'm not dosing any trace right now (I have in the past but stopped 6 months ago when I had issues keeping calcium stable

WC's and getting the salanity right will help a LOT! This is probably 75% or more of the battle. Alk, cal, mag, and others that are low will come up as you raise salanity.

4. The only thing I have added recently besides two-part from BRS is Aptasia-X as I have been fighting this outbreak. Can you use too much?

Don't like that stuff. Most of the time it makes it worse. Full tank shot of what we're dealing with?
Maybe nudies if it's bad enough, I don't see any problems with the fish stocking you have. Just need to make sure they live I guess.

5. I have switched to using vinegar to clean the tank to make sure pollutants are not entering - no clue if that is relevant here.

What does this mean?

Posting links below.......

Refractometer calibrating

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-12/rhf/index.php

Calibration standard

Reef Aquarium Salinity: DIY Calibration Standards

Reef Aquarium Salinity: DIY Calibration Standards By Randy Holmes-Farley One of the most important issues facing marine aquarists is providing a suitable environment for their aquaria's inhabitants. Among the important properties for a marine...

www.reef2reef.com